a new understanding of today, time and space.

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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:34 pm

upon reflection, perhaps the issue/problems of the modern era,
lies in the fact that we don't actually engage with philosophy..

in other words, we don't "get" what philosophy is and what it does....

we pontificate and we argue and we list but we don't philosophize....

and that is an importance distinction....

what is the value of philosophy?

because we miss what is the value of philosophy, we miss
what is really important.....

Philosophy: love of wisdom..... that is great, but what does
that tell us about how, HOW we engage in philosophy......

we cannot answer the questions of existence because we are unable to
or fail to understand what philosophy is.........

the very point of philosophy is to center us in our understanding of what it
means to be human....I am human because I hold certain values....
that is philosophy... and what are those values?...and should I hold
those values? that is the point of philosophy..... our engagement
with the "what are we to do?" "and what should we believe in?" for example,
is the point of philosophy.....

to say, "I am a liberal" isn't an engagement with philosophy.....

that is a arbitrary, categorical statement.. it isn't philosophy because
philosophy is asking, why, why am I a liberal?
what is the point of, the value of being a liberal?

not that I am a liberal, but the why of being a liberal.

I am a liberal.. that is a conviction.. not philosophy....

I am a liberal because I hope to find what it means to be
a human being and how do we get from here, animal or
animal/human to becoming fully human... and why that even matters?

that is philosophy... philosophy requires some movement of some sort...
no movement in thought or action, that isn't philosophy...
that is dogma or gospel....

philosophy requires some motion or action to be philosophy....
the motion or action to be a new understanding of what it means
to be human.... philosophy is a change in viewpoint.. not a place in
time or a place within action...

philosophy is ambiguity, doubt, uncertainty........

if you are certain, that is not philosophy.. that is dogma.....

I believe in X, Y and Z... is philosophy only in regards to my overcoming
the belief in X, Y and Z....

philosophy is the overcoming of what we currently, right now believe in...

but the point of existence is to change and adapt our conditions because
the enviroment we exists in, is always changing and moving.. and we must
change and adapt in those moving enviroments....
that is philosophy.... the changing and adapting to those ever
changing enviroment...

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:38 pm

we have to understand what philosophy is before, before
we can understand what it means to be human......

I cannot hope to understand who I am and what it is
what I am suppose to do, until I understand what
philosophy is and does.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:55 pm

we cannot engage with what our lives mean until we engage with
philosophy and what that means....

we must understand what philosophy is and does, and then we can
have some engagement with who we are and what is our meaning/

to say, MAN is, is to engage in theology, not philosophy.....

to say, MAN is because of......, that is philosophy....

it is the movement that makes it philosophy....
not theology.....

we treat philosophy as knowledge instead of a search for
something....we treat philosophy as the final cause instead
of a path or road to something...

philosophy is a path to something, not a fix, set knowledge of

we must use philosophy as a way of life, and not as a fixed
set of knowledge....

and until we engage in philosophy as a way of life, we cannot
truly understand our place in the universe.....

we treat philosophy as we treat this knowledge
"the earth is 93 million miles from the sun" ok, so what does
that mean for us, for me? and that is how we see philosophy....
well, Plato wrote the allegory of the cave...ok, so what does that mean
for us, for me?

it is not in certainly, knowledge that we can philosophize, it is
in uncertainty, doubt, lack of convictions... that we must
engage with philosophy....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:18 pm

the question becomes this, why must we use philosophy to center
who we are? why can't we use theology or science or history or
economics to understand our value and use?

because philosophy is the only discipline that is broad enough
to allow us some thought into our engagement with who we are....

for example, Marx theories are economic theories, not political theories
and must be considered economically.... the question of understanding who
we are, must be broader based then just economics, or history or science....

for example, telling me that the theory of relativity can be the basis
of an ethical theory is simply wrong...just as the scientific theories of
Newton were used to base an ethical theory was wrong...

you cannot tell me how to live, based upon a scientific fact...
the earth is 93 million miles from the sun... great, but does that
tell me who I am and what I am supposed to do?

we cannot use science or economic or history as a "way of life"
we simply cannot use them that way......

we can use the religious that way, but who is truly religious enough to
actually use religion as a way of life? few to none.....

to match our words with our actions.... as a way of life...
matching what we say with what we do.....

these days, that is an radical idea....having an ism or ideology
as a way of life....

people often claim to be "Christian" and yet, hold to words of
hate and anger and lust and greed... there is an disconnect
between their words and their actions....

If I were to say, I am a "Christian" then I must live my life as
a way of life, of being "Christian"...

if I state something and I won't act within those words, I am
being a hypocrite.... a modern state of mind.. being a hypocrite....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:51 pm

to understand this idea of philosophy and its context....
I offer up this idea.....

Kant and his questions are questions he and his age wondered about,
they were their questions and he offered up his answers, but
his questions and answers are his, his time period and his place...

I am not that interest in Kant because his questions are not my questions...
because of the changes in the enviroment and the history of the last 200 years....

my questions are, how was the holocaust possible? what inside of us,
allowed us to commit such atrocities? how can we hold children in
concentrations camps today? is the two, the holocaust of Germany
and the modern day concentration camps we have for children, the same?

I would argue yes, they arise from the exact same historical and political
conditions which are tied into the various revolutions, the scientific, political
social and economic revolutions, that have rocked history over the last
500 years.... we are different because our enviroment is different...
for example, we have the industrial revolution, which help create
capitalism and that capitalism is one of the driving forces that help
make the holocaust and concentrations camps possible because
capitalism negates and dehumanizes human beings... we become
just mere things, to use and abuse and discard when our value,
our production of profits decrease...we become expendable...
we are retired at an old age because that is when our value, as
the creators of profits/money ends....

philosophy and history and economics have over the last 500 years made
us aware of the fact that we are expendable, once we no longer produce
any profits/money...our value, as human beings is tied up into our
producing/consuming products and their creation of profits and wealth for
others....once that ends, we are expendable..... to be toss out like garbage...

this negation of human beings and their values is nihilism and that is the point
Nietzsche...... we are negated and devalued as human beings because we exists
as a means to the creation of profits/money for others.. we have no value in just
being ourselves for that doesn't create what is most important in our society today,
the creation of profits/money....

the use of philosophy is to redeem us to become beings of value, even if
we don't produce or consume that in turn, creates profits or wealth.....

to find the worth of human beings that isn't connected with our creation
of profits/money is a question for our time....

how do I justify being human when I don't create profits/wealth?

that is the philosophical question we are engaged with today.......

I have value even if I don't create profits/wealth....

and you have value even if you don't create profits/money......

and what is the basis of that worth, we human beings have if it isn't
the creation of wealth/profits?

How do I justify my existence when I don't create wealth/profits?

that is one of the modern questions we are faced with.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:14 pm

Ok, so we have various isms and ideologies that
have human beings as being the center of meaning...

what does that even mean?

we have ism's and ideologies that negate
and dehumanize human beings like Nazism,
communism, capitalism, even Catholicism
and Buddhism......

wait, what the fuck? even Catholicism and Buddhism?

yep... ok, so we have such negating ism's as communism...
but why is communism, a negation of human beings?

because the focus is on the dialectical materialism, being
a part of the dialectical materialism that drives the history of
the world within economics.. but where are the human beings
within communism? they are secondary, a side piece of
the dialectical materialism, not the focus of communism....
that is the failure of communism.... it doesn't put human beings
first.. it puts the dialectical materialism first, humans, second...
as is the same for catholicism... god is first, human are second..
we are part of god's plan, but human beings should be first, not second
and that is the failure of Catholicism...

and Buddhism? why the focus of Buddhism is the role of suffering,
we must escape suffering in Buddhism, which is a part of human existence
but not the whole of human existence... it is this humans being second to
suffering, that makes Buddhism the wrong approach to existence...

and what about existentialism? it is an attempt to move
human beings back to becoming what is the first thought of
existence.... not as a secondary side question...

what does it mean to be authentic? that is a human question,
not a secondary question about what means to be human...

every answer we offer must be in terms of what it means to be
human... and every answer that begins with something other then
being human, must be rejected.....

capitalism negates human beings because capitalism makes
the pursuit of profits/wealth as the primary goal of human existence
and that is wrong......

the cult of republicanism is the cult of worship of IQ45 and not
the value and worth of human beings.. it is the wrong focus
of these ism's and ideologies that make them wrong....

anytime the ism and/or ideology focuses on something besides
human beings, it is going to fail...... we must become the center
of our existence...not god, not the dialectical materialism, not
suffering, not profits/money, and not worshiping an village idiot...

when we push human beings to the front and center of our existence,
we then can begin there and explore outward from there.......

we have value and worth... and until we put ourselves front and center,
we cannot, cannot see our value and worth because the other values
hide and distort our value and worth.....

as long as human beings are secondary to profits/wealth, ism's like
capitalism and communism and religion like Catholicism and Buddhism,
we will continue to have the disconnection and alienation we have
faced since we have put ism's and ideologies before human beings......

we are apart, separate, disconnected, alienated from ourselves, our friends,
our family and our society because we don't put ourselves, human beings first
as our primary concern in existence...... right now we put profits/money
and nation and god and dialectical materialism first, but not human beings....

we have lost ourselves in our attempts to think of ourselves as patriots
and communist and catholics and Buddhist and Christians?

what about thinking of us as human beings, not as catholics or buddhist
or capitalist or patriots.

try putting human beings first, not as an ism or ideology, but
as a human being.... I have needs, both physical and psychological
needs..... and we must meet those needs on a human level, not
on a ideological or ism' need...

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:19 pm

by what method are we going to discover the "how to" in life...

for example, how am I suppose to engage with my fellow human being?

which is to say, what are the rules of morality between people?

should I be able to hit people? and why not?

should I be able to, as IQ45 says, "grab pussy" whenever I want, and why not?

what are the rules of behavior we have for human beings and why those rules? '

why should I love my fellow human beings instead of hating them?

and who chooses those rules of behavior?

we have laws and we have unofficial rules of behavior.....

for example we have common courtesies... we say, thank you,
and your welcome and bless you, all as part of common courtesies....
but there is no law requiring me to do so...

so, we seem to have two concepts of morality.. the official one.. being laws
and the unofficial one being common courtesies...being polite as it were.....

I don't have to be polite or kind or nice to anyone, it isn't an official law, or
requirement to exists within society... but the vast majority of people follow
both the official and unofficial rules of morality....

one thing to note that within both the official and unofficial rules of society
is different in different places on the planet....this suggest that our rules of
engagement with other people, both officially and unofficially, are relative...
not objective...the rules of society isn't fixed, isn't permanent, and isn't
standard to all people....different times and different places have different
rules of behavior, both officially and unofficially..... laws and politeness
are different things at different time and places.....

and the second question becomes why these official rules, called laws
and why the unofficial rules, politeness are vastly different in different
places and times?

are the rules, both official and unofficial based on science or religion or
history or economics or philosophy or language?
or some combination of these factors?

it is said that the reason people shake hands is to prove to the other person,
that one doesn't have any weapons in their hands.. that is an historical reason
for shaking hands... and saying, bless you, could be from the various plagues that
have rendered millions dead... for example, we might say, bless you, because of
the "black death" which killed millions and we wanted to note that sneezing
was a possible sign of the devil or of god or of riding one of demons.....
saying, bless you, has had a religious connotation since the plague....

but today, we consider it a sign of being polite...and nothing to do with
any connotation of the "black death"...

we have forgotten the real reason why we say, bless you....

but one must ask, why are we even considering being polite to
each other? why do we considers being polite even being important?

because it smooths out our relationship between people...
by being polite, I allow us to hold cordial relationship between
the two of us.....by being polite... it allows us to function as
human beings.... it isn't about science... science can't tell us
why we engage in politeness between two people and religion can't
tell us why we engage in politeness between two people....
and language can't tell us why we engage in politeness between

but history might...so some disciplines might help us understand
why we do what we do...... the trick is finding the right discipline to
understand the different aspects of human behavior.....

economics can't tell me how I am suppose to engage with my fellow
human beings, either officially or unofficially.. but philosophy might.....

so the important thing to note here is the fact is, we must
ask the right questions in order to find the right answers to our

the point of politeness is to reduce the amount of conflict within
a society... that is why eastern Asian countries have less personal conflict
because politeness is considered to be of higher personal values
then in the west.... I have seen fights in supermarkets for example,
something you wouldn't normally see in an Asian supermarket......

interpersonal relationships between Asian countries is different then
in then in western countries.... you see it all the time here in California...

the interactions between Chinese or Japanese families is far different
then western Caucasian families... is that science? nope, is that language?
don't think so... is that economics? doubt it.... is it a function of history,
possibly and is a function of religion? possibly....

so how do we consider the rules governing relationships between
people to be formed? both officially and unofficially.....

and who creates these rules?

questions to be considered....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:22 pm

one of the points of philosophy is to question
our basic assumptions that we exists under and live

every philosopher has made this, a part and parcel of their
philosophy.... for some, like Hume, it was the entire focus
of their philosophy....to challenge the basic notions that
we operate under.....

if you don't challenge your philosophy, then you are avoiding or skipping
the most fundamental aspect of what philosophy is...challenging
your most basic questions of existence..."why am I here?" "What are we
to do?" "what should I believe in?"... "what values should I/we hold?"

most people, most people don't even think about or contemplate
what it means to hold values and what values they "should" be holding.....

they think about their actions, but not even the value of their actions,
but the actions of making money, or of taking tommy to school, of
watching the ball game, of cleaning the house....
the day to day actions we all engage with, but don't really think about....

is that what it means to be human? by taking tommy to school?
by cleaning the house more effectively? by watching the Rams game and not watching
the Giants game? taking our day to day actions and assume, assume that is what
is meant by being human? I am human, so I must clean and vacuum and wipe down
the kitchen sink? is that really what means to being human?

one might say, hay this stuff gotta happen, so we do it.. perhaps,
but does that make us human?

is rising above animals mean to clean the bathroom?

somehow, I don't think so........

is being animal/human mean I am spending my days cleaning the kitchen?

and then what does being fully human mean? I don't clean the bathroom but
someone else does? or does the bathroom clean itself?

is existence really about cleaning the house?

or does existence have some different, deeper meaning?

and do you ask yourself that? or do you just assume that
our existence is about cleaning the bathroom?

if I question my existence, then perhaps I am left without
any possible reason to live?

perhaps, perhaps not....

and this is the point of why we fail to ask ourselves, is this all there is?

because we might not like the answer we find.. we might find ourselves in
some deep philosophical crisis that we cannot escape....

so it is fear that forces us to avoid challenging our most basic assumptions...

do you allow fear to run your life? if you are a conservative, then yes...
but does that mean we all have to engage in fear? No, no I don't think so....

for far too long, we have allowed fear to drive our actions and our thinking....
we must move on to the next challenge which to engage with more positive
feelings/emotions of love and hope and wonder and justice/equality......

we are in a new environment and that means we must have new thinking
to match the new environment... our thinking must change with changes
in the environment.. that is adaptation.... evolution and those animals
that change, adapt to changing conditions are the ones that survive....

I want to belong to the one of surviving species and that means
I/we must change and adapt to the ever changing conditions of existence....

so we must challenge our assumptions because that will allow us
to be able to change and adapt to the new conditions that exists
within every environment... by not adapting to new conditions by
challenging our assumptions is to prepare us for possible defeat by
the changing environment... we must change to meet changing
conditions.. and only by challenging our assumptions, can we do that....

thus the GOP by holding onto their assumptions that guided America
in the past, but may not be suitable today, are leading America to
possible failure.... because we have to adapt and change with
the conditions and conservatives and conservatism is unable to
to change to match the changing conditions....

the assumptions we hold dear may prevent us from being able to
adapt to the new conditions...

change is not only possible for survival, but necessary for survival .....

the question is not how to hold on to traditions that we have but
how do we change traditions to be able to adapt, change to the
changing conditions we find ourselves in?

survival of our species lies in our being able to change and adapt
who we are and what we hold to be true... it is by challenging
our assumptions that will allow us to survive......

or is surviving as a species, not that important to you?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:54 pm

watching the GOP convention, they proclaim loud and clear,
that to be a "true" American, one must hold certain values,
that at one time, may or may not have made "America great".....

that those values include such things as freedom and opportunity
and "access" to thing such as schools and medicine, is the path
to "American exceptionalism" but is there such as thing as "American

to believe that we are somehow, in someway, inherently different
from other nations, is an assumption... that must be challenged....

the real danger of holding such an artificial thought is that we are unable
to change or adapt to any new or changing conditions on the ground.....

to believe one holds the truth means we might not see how or why we
must change to adapt to the new world.......

Perhaps to meet the new world order, we must change our entire way
of life? perhaps... but we must first accept that we might not have
all the answers already..... if I believe I am right and living within the truth,
then why should I change? If I already hold the truth, then what drives
me to challenge my assumptions?

personally, I don't believe I hold the "TRUTH"... but I can reach the "truth"
if I am willing to challenge my assumptions.. the "truth" that is the only truth
possible, that the "truth" as we know it, is temporary, perishable, transient....

there is no "truth" that last throughout time.. every single truth has a time
limit... because of an ever changing environment......

so a "truth" that existed for the Greeks and the Romans,
is a truth that existed during that time period, but it doesn't hold now
because of the changing environment since then......

but Christian today hold the Christianity is a truth that has held since
the Roman period and will hold forever... but no truth, no truth can
last forever because of the changing environment we and our society/state
goes through....

the idea of "rugged Individualism" as a ism did not survive the time period
in which it began because America is in a different situation then it was......

the idea's that made "America great" no longer exists because America
itself change and became something different....

we have to change and adapt to the new conditions that exists
today and I believe that "socialism" is the way into the future
because the changing conditions no longer favor capitalism....

capitalism is the past and socialism is the future...
but recall, that socialism is an economic system, not
a political system... so I am not asking for a change in
the political system of democracy.. I am asking for a
fairer, more equitable economic system to match our
more democratic political system....

to match up our economic system with our political system....

no more tyranny politically, and no more tyranny economically.....

to make the economic system more "democratic" to make it fair
and honest and equal.....

to match an political system, that allegedly is about the majority
acceptance of the rule of law and who rules and who pays....

our current economic system is a tyranny of the corporation..
and that must end if we are to hold on to our freedoms and liberty....

so the path forward is through economic equality which is socialism
as an economic system.....

to allow government to balance out and even out the inequalities
of our current economic system....

income inequality is a sure sign that we exists within an economic tyranny....

great corporate wealth is another sure sign that we live within an
economic tyranny......

so how do you propose to end this economic tyranny?

for most people, they don't even see the current economic
tyranny... they just see their paychecks and think, assume that
that is all they have to think about.... but dig deeper and see
what it really means to have capitalism....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:18 pm

existence is not an answer, but a question...

so, what is your question?

for example, the question of being has changed in the face of
A.I and in the face of the changing nature of technology
that is implanted in human beings... for example, am I still
human if I have a cochlear implant? does that change the nature
of my being? or does the nature of being change if I must have
technology inside of me that allows me to exists or function,
like a pacemaker?

the rise of medical technology has changed the nature of who we are,
have we begun to think about the challenge of what it means to be
human, given A.I or technology?

this is a current question that wasn't possible before our modern,
technical age....

our prior assumptions about what it means to be human must change,
adapt to current technology that changes the nature of being......

if I cannot hear, does that change who I am? of course, but then does
the new technology that improves or changes my hearing, really
change my being once again?

being might be thought of, that who I am at this moment in time...
subject to change....

the truth is, that I can only think of being in regards to my being, my
own existence at this moment... I am...that is being.....and what
does that mean?

to often we think of being in theoretical terms... how was being thought
of in the Greek age? what the hell does that even mean?

we have to attached words like "being" to some sort of concrete
meaning or experience.. I come into being at my birth and I leave
my being at death... and that maybe all we can say about being, maybe.....

being, as a word or a experience has to be connected to something
we can touch or see or hear or taste or smell... it must have some
physical connection to us to have any meaning......

so, for example, Heidegger talks about "being" a lot..... but what does
that actually mean? what is the word, "being" actually connected to?
what can I touch that would tell me about "being"?

we have to bring philosophical words like "being" back to earth,
back to something that is real and have mass and weight....

being must become tangible.... seen and touched and weighed
and measured... does that mean that "being" should become
scientific? nope, just be able to somehow connect the word "being"
to the real world.....as of right now... the word, "being" has no
connection, no reality, is isn't connected to anything we can remotely
call real... it is an assumption....

so, how do we make "being" real, tangible?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:21 pm

so this question of "being" has been on my mind....

so I went the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy...
as I am wont to do when I am researching something....

I looked up "being"... that sent me to "existence" ok, fine....

I looked up "existence" and out came a long, convoluted article....
at one point, was doing the if A is, then B is then C must be....
I couldn't really make any sense of the article....

so why focus on the word "being" if you can't explain it easily, simply....

and I recalled Einstein... he said if you can't explain something that
a 6 year old can understand, then you don't really know it....and you know
what, he is right......

the goal is understanding and by using words that someone without a Masters
degree can figure out is the point of philosophy....

our goal is not to make understanding things harder, but to
make understanding things easier.......but why would people
go about making such idea's as history and being and philosophy
be so hard?

Ego... it feels good, not much different then mental masterbation...
to be able to know something that others don't or cannot know....

I feel differently... knowledge should be available to everyone without
all the crap put into it to make it hard to understand...

or in other words.... bring the knowledge to the people....

what is being? take that knowledge and reduce it to the
understanding of everyone... take wisdom and make it clear
and concise to everyone...to take the position that this information
is too "dense" or "hard" for people to understand is simply wrong.....

I want people to engage in their own understanding of what it means to
be human... don't take my word as gospel.... find out for yourself....

every single person on planet earth needs to engage with some understanding
of the "who, what, when, where, how and why" of human existence....

one of the fundamental rights of human existence that I have called for,
is the right to education...to learn...it is just as important as the other rights
of human existence which is food, water, shelter, warmth and health care....

it is not enough to do, we must think about what we are doing and why....

Nike ads often say, "Just do it"... ok, but do what and why?

and education allows us to make inform decisions as to what to do and why.....

if we are educated, then we can see the danger of such things as global warming
and overpopulation and pollution.. and we can then see that we must "do"
something and why, why we must do something....

education can also lead us to think about what it is we ought to be doing to
solve these issues of global warming or pollution....

now one thing I have noticed is that people tend to shy away from "ought"
questions and answers..... "ought" should be a motivator of what we should do.....

in other words, we should embrace "ought" as a means to understanding....

human beings "ought" to be kind to each other... so what will it take to get
us to be kinder to each other?

there is nothing wrong with "ought" because it is a goal to be achieved...
and we need goals and destinations if we are to "become who we are"....

the "ought" tell us what we should be aiming for, not what we have, but
what we need to do to, for example, "to form a more perfect union"....
what "ought" we do in order "to form a more perfect union"?

"ought" is a perfectly excellent and useful way to understand where
we are now and where we need to be....

but "ought" is slightly different version of "being".... "ought" is really
the future tense of "being"... we "ought" to be.....

so, in your mind, what "ought" people to do?

what future tense of "being", the right now, "ought" we to do?

what goal or destination "ought" we aim for?

where should we "be" in 1 year or 5 years or 10 years?

but that is still too limited amount of time... we should be
thinking in terms of 50 years or 100 years or 500 years or
even 1000 years..... we should be thinking of what "ought" to be
in that time......

we mustn't be afraid of the future or afraid to dare to "form a more perfect union"

we can't be conservative about what we dare....... dare to be great instead
of what most people do today, which is settle for a meager and barely
acceptable today or even tomorrow....

reject settling for the easiest path into the future.....

if the path call for us to climb mountains, then we must begin to
climb mountains instead of walking downhill because it is easier to do....

no longer can we or must we accept the easy road into tomorrow....

so the question of "being" is really a question of what it is we are going to do.....

so, do it and think about why, why we are doing it?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:23 pm

so what exactly is the point of philosophy?

is it really to understand or know what the meaning of
"being" is within Greek philosophy or as meant by Kant or
Hegel? NO, I don't believe so... knowledge is a small part
of understanding... and anybody can know these things...
Knowledge is knowing that the earth is 93 million miles from
the sun... but wisdom is knowing what this means to us in
our day to day lives......

it isn't knowledge that leads us to philosophy.. but understanding
what is next, that is important...

what am I to do with that knowledge is what is important....

I can know all about Kant's transcendental idealism, but
the real question is, what does that information do for me,
or what can I do with that information... how does that information make
me a better person? or how does that information allow me to make
my own judgements about things.....

information by itself has no value unless it is used to do something....

so to learn about Kant's transcendental idealism is nice, but
the real value comes from taking that information
and doing one's own research and philosophy......

why learn about such things if one doesn't do something with it?

I read all of Nietzsche, not to know about Nietzsche but to learn what
it means to me and what I can do with that knowledge.....
Nietzsche has value for me because it can give me information
about what is life and what does it means......

information that is just information has no value...
information that I can use to take action or to understand
something else, that is useful.....

why do you learn things? what value do those things have to you?

to study the history of "being" has value if, if you then further use
that knowledge to work out theories of your own or to use to further
understand other philosophers or thinkers....

what is knowledge? something to use to go further then just the knowledge itself.....

knowledge for its own sake is nice, but knowledge used to gain further
wisdom is better....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:32 pm

it is not just knowledge that we philosophers search for,
what happens after we get knowledge that matters.....

ok, so I learn the "TRUTH", this knowledge....
what do I do with it that make the "TRUTH" become
the "TRUTH"....

It isn't knowledge per se that is important, but what we do
with that knowledge that is important.....

do we use knowledge to gain wisdom and understanding of what
it means to be human? or do we use knowledge to pretend we
are smarter then other people?

how we use knowledge is just as important as the knowledge itself....

how are you using your knowledge?

and what uses is your knowledge going to?

what is the knowledge being used for?

that is the important question, not what specific knowledge I have,
but what am I using that knowledge for?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:05 pm

as we face our own political crisis, in which the choices that are offered
end with the declaration of Martial law.....
no, we have other crisis that we must investigate.....

the other crisis, perhaps, perhaps the crisis of time is not about
our knowledge or even what to do with that knowledge but
the crisis of the philosophy we have, is that the knowledge we have
is inadequate to answer the questions we face.....

in other words, we face a serious of crisis and we are unable to answer them,
solve them because our philosophies, political, social, economic,
scientific and philosophical are unable to answer the question of our times....

we are faced with something no other society has faced... we have
the technological means to end the earth.... destroy the entire planet...
something no other society has ever had before....our philosophies of the past,
scientific, political, social, economic and philosophical are unable to answer
the technological problems we face...

technology like nuclear, biological, transhumanism, computers,
smart phones... can studying someone like Kant or Hegel,
answer such questions about the threat that technology engages us?

we cannot answer modern technological questions with answers about
spirit or being or transcendental idealism?

we must face the fact that we are force by technology to answer our
questions differently then we did in the past.... who has yet to face
the question of technology with answers like "a priori knowledge"
of Kant?

we must have new answers to face our new times.... the old questions will no
longer answer such questions that our technology demands....

how do we learn to live with and control the new technology?

we have yet to answer such basic questions and we must answer
them before it becomes too late......

basic questions of philosophy like Socrates questions of the soul
or how do we find goodness or how do we become better, are important
questions but those questions are also engaged with our 21st century
questions of technology and how do we learn to live with the technology?

how do we become better people given the modern technology
that can link us with everyone on planet earth in microseconds?

every philosophical question we now face has the questions of technology,
front and center...

what does it mean to be human given technology has changed what it
means to be human...... Is A.I part of being human? if someone has
a mechanical arm, are they still human? if they have a mechanical
heart, are they still human?

who knows?

who has ventured a guess?

and those are the questions of existence that face us.....

do you accept the challenge of trying to understand what it means
to be human given our present technology and possibly even greater
technology that further blurs the lines between the biological and

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:55 pm

in our lives, we have past, present and future.....

conservatives are focused upon the past, liberals are focused
on the future.......

we, as human beings, must have some sort of goal or destination to
strive for if we are to move beyond ourselves, as constructed in
the present....to achieve this goal is the point, perhaps, of
what it means to be human.... achieving something in the past,
makes no sense and we cannot achieve something in the present because
achievement is not present, but future.... for example, I pledge to run
8 miles a day... that sounds like the present, but in reality, it is a future
goal.. and most things we are attempting is in the future.... I am trying to lose
weight.... future, I am trying to become healthier... future, I am
trying to become a better person.... future.... this is the nature of
most of our action in life... I work to achieve a paycheck, we don't get paid
in the present for work done now... we get paid in the future for word done
now..... I work then I get a paycheck... a future happening....

so we spend most of our time, in some engagement with the future,
not the past... I may buy food for example, but that food will be eaten
in the future, not at this moment, the present....

so, our engagement is really with the future.. the who, what, when,
where, how and why....all of them is really leading us into the future...
not the past....

so what is the future engagement does the conservative have?

what do they offer us in the future?

for example, conservatives have been trying to return America to
days of yesteryear....you could hear Raygun pine for the 1950's...
to an America that actually didn't exists..

and you hear it today, in conservatives trying to return America
to some place like their version of America where women
and people of color were subservient to white men... where
colored people and women knew their place.... that is the America
conservatives are trying to return to........a land of make believe.....

the reality is in the declaration of Independence....

"All men/people are created equal" and thus there is no
such thing as anyone being subservient to anyone else....

equality is not just given lip service like it is today...
it is a statement of fact....where all people are created/treated

In this lie the failure of the conservative... because they
have no sense of where to go tomorrow.. what goal will they achieve
tomorrow? what can they attempt to do if their only goal is to
return women and people of colored to their prior status of being
subservient to white men... that ship has sailed and conservatives
haven't even figured that out yet.....

a conservative has no idea what they need to accomplish in
the years ahead because they don't think about what is needed
to accomplish tomorrow....they are still locked into the past.....

I see a tomorrow that is equal, where all people are equal, both
legally and economically and politically and socially.....

so I see a government that plays a vital role in all people, not just
American's, achieving equality because they are human beings....
it isn't about being rich or famous or have titles that allows one to be equal....
but to be human....equality in the political and the economic and the
social and the legal..... it isn't enough to be politically equal.... we must
be equal in every aspect of our lives or, or no one is equal......

the goal is to gain equality for all people... to allow them the
space to become who they are...in other words, government goal
is to level the playing field that allows everyone an equal opportunity
to become or achieve what they need or want to be......

capitalism, well defended by conservatives, is the path to failure because
capitalism doesn't allow a level playing field... by virtue of money, a person or
family already has a head start.... and that isn't a level playing field.....

I see an America where money and titles and fame have no meaning or point....

they aren't the goal.... the goal of existence is to reach the possibilities
that one can reach... to become what is possible for each of us, as defined
by each of us.... in other words, we seek out our possibilities...
can I become a great philosopher? I think I already am, but can I become
a great mathematician..... not a chance in hell...
I just don't have that as a possibility...I just don't deal well with math.....

will I be able to hear again? I doubt it, the possibilities are limited to
technology, not with anything I can do....

I can work with my possibilities, which means I can become a good or even
a great philosopher or a great writer or a great thinker... all of these are
possible for me....and so I work on what is possible for me... that doesn't mean
my possibilities are your possibilities... you may not be a great or even a good
philosopher, but you might be a great artist.. or perhaps your possibilities are
in working with your hands... or perhaps you are a great mathematician...
that might be possible for you... but not me....

it isn't about our making money or how many houses we own or what kind
of car we drive, but about achieving what is possible within our own possibilities...

conservatives are blind to our possibilities... they only see the past
and the unsustainable future of capitalism....

they are blind to what is possible within our future.....

what drives them? nothing but greed, wealth, lust, ego, material goods.....

and that is what they think the future is about... instead of
reaching something higher then us... which is the possibilities
that lie within each of us... but we have to strive and reach to
fulfill those possibilities...... possibilities aren't just handed to us...
we must work for them and that is what bothers the conservative,
they don't want to do the hard work to reach their potential....

reaching into the past is far easier to achieve then going into the future
to become something new........

so, what do you want out of your future?

is it to reach the possibilities you have or is it to
gain simple, easy to achieve goals of wealth, power,
material goods, cars, titles and fame......

what do you want in your future?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:02 am

quick test: who is Nicolai Hartmann?

K: he was perhaps one of the of the most important German Philosophers
in the 20th century.... He might have been the premier philosopher coming
out of Germany from 1910 to his death in 1950.... still never hear of him?

Join the club.... I haven't either... and I haven't, in my 15 years at ILP, ever
heard of anyone ever mentioning him...

but how does that work? how does someone who might have been the
preeminent philosopher in the first half of the 20th century, disappear
so completely? How does someone vanish in less then 80 years?

it suggests the hit and miss facility of philosophy and science and
history and socially..... we have had people, people who have done
good and solid work in a field and completely disappear from view a
few years later....

the story of Hartmann is the story of history, where someone vanishes
and another person, with less value, remains alive years later.....

as far as I can tell the mysterious disappearance of Hartmann comes
from the fact he did philosophy, as it always has been done for centuries....

and that didn't fit into our "Modern" age of philosophy....
we don't "Philosophize" that way anymore....Hartmann work was
systematic, organized, set up the way philosophy had been done
since Descartes... covering all the main area's of philosophy and
done in a large scale way...

I would study Hartmann except for the fact, very little of his work
has been translated into English....

think of those who have been lost in the mist of history....
what we might learn if we would recover them......

coulda, woulda, shoulda......

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:01 am

today America: we focus on the wrong thing.....

we shouldn't focus on the economic side of existence...
that is what Marx did... he made economics the focal point
of history and we follow him when we make economics
the focal point of what we see and approve of in our current America.....

by not focusing on the economics side of existence, I am actually not
a Marxist.... I am a humanist.. when I make the human side the most
important aspect of human existence...I don't care about the GDP or
how high the Stock market goes.. it is completely irrelevant to me....
thus I am not a Marxist nor a capitalist for that matter......

I care about us as human beings.. what does it take for us to continue
our long march from being animal to today's animal/human to tomorrow's
fully human......what does it mean to be human?

I don't care about the economic side of existence, the production or
the consumption side of existence....how we put food on the table....
that side, for me anyway, is a human right... we have a right as human beings,
because we are alive, we have the right to those basic necessities like
food, water, health care, shelter... those are basic rights of being human......

I care about that, not about the economic side of existence.....

I believe in creating a vision that power us into the next millennium.....
that is my quest.....it isn't about creating an economic powerhouse or
military powerhouse... those paths are paths to failure....I believe
in creating a vision for us to reach as human beings.... not as economic beings...

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:37 pm

if there was a word in which to describe human beings, that word would
be transcending..... but, not in the way you think....it doesn't involve
the spiritual or nonphysical realm
and it isn't involve with Kantian philosophy..........

transcend: be or go beyond the range or limits of
(something abstract, typically a conceptual field or

surpass (a person or achievement)

unlike all other creatures, we are not fixed, set in who we are and
what is possible for us.....yes, I can be an animal, with animal responses
and dealing with reality as an animal would... using only my instincts and
my drive for the basics needs of life, physically and emotionally
and psychologically.......if I focus upon these things, yes, I am an
animal.... but we can rise above being just animals....a dog cannot rise
above being a dog... it has instincts and drives that a dog must follow...
it cannot do anything else......

but we are open ended creatures.. which means we are animals
and we have animal instincts and drives... so that end is closed,
but we can become something more with our rational side......

animals have but two choices when faced with danger, fight or flight....

we humans can rise above our programming and make another choice,
a choice that is only possible because we do not have fixed choices...

humans can overcome our programming.... a hero is one who has overcome
their programming and went into a situation where they overcame their fear....
they made a third choice...overcoming one's fear is a choice....
going into battle is a choice where we overcome our fear and we march
into possible death.. we know the possible outcomes, we are frightened
and yet, we still go......animals cannot overcome their fears.....

when we march into battle, we are overcoming every single instinct we
have to run, to run away far away......

this is the essence of being human.. overcoming our instincts
and doing the one thing every fiber of our being is telling us to
go away from....to walk into danger.......

overcoming our instincts is what makes us human...and that is
what it means that human beings are open ended..... we are not
bound, forced to act upon our instincts... we can rise above them
and do the very thing our instincts are warning us against.......

we can transcend our programming.. overcome it.....

and what is greatness?

those people who transcend our programming in a new and different way.....

we human beings are trained and programmed to follow orders
and commands from our family, state, media, social leaders.....

recall the great crime of humanity....Adam committed it, and every single
great leader since him has committed it... that crime is the crime of
insubordination....the defiance of authority, refusal to obey orders....

can you think of a leader that didn't commit insubordination?

I can't.... from Jesus to Luther to Socrates to Gandhi to MLK to
to Mandela to George Washington to Napoleon to name a few......

greatness comes from not following the crowd or obeying orders.....

it comes from seeing what needs to be done, outside of instinct and
following the "natural order".....

to disobey is to learn to transcend our natural instincts to obey authority....

but the disobeying isn't about the mindless path into destruction....
most people disobey because of the natural urge to cause chaos and
destruction...like a child.. who will happily destroy a building made out
of blocks that took days to build.... the urge to destroy is just as naturel
in human beings as it is to build..... but it is childlike and born of instinct...

to spite others is a natural urge of people....I too, have done so on
many occasions.... just to cause chaos... for no other reason...

but we can rise above the baseless and petty instinct, this mindless need
to cause chaos.......

we can be better then this... and that is the point....we can be better...
we can operate above our petty instincts and rise to the level of being
human.... to transcend our base nature of being animal....
and becoming human.....note I did not say, become human, no,
becoming is the state of being human..... we are ever in movement,
in development, an ongoing state of evolution.....

we are not fixed in who we are and thus we are capable of becoming,
going from animal, to animal/human to becoming fully human and then,
and then becoming something beyond that.... that is the nature of
being human... we are not fixed, we are not set, we are not locked
into instincts and not set into our ways...

we can transcend higher or, or we can go lower... become more animal,
less human... and we can do that by an engagement with violence
and hate and lust and greed and other instinctual affairs....

to rise, to rise to become human means we must engage with
that which is higher then being an animal.... where we no longer
engage with the animal part of us....where we transcend our instincts
and we seek the higher values of being human....our focus is
more then just seeking the basic necessities like food, water,
shelter, health care, education.... these are the basic needs and
necessities of being human... but we, to become human, must rise
above this bottom level of existence and rise to the higher levels
of existence.... to the level of safety/security, to esteem, to the level
love and belonging...... rising to reach the psychological needs that
all human beings needs.... it is more then reaching our base
physiological needs of food and water... so on....

to become human, we must engage with our higher needs of
belonging and love and our need of esteem... but we must
reach our highest level, the need to self-actualisation.....

where we begin to reach out and seek to achieve our
possibilities as human beings...

if it is possible for me to become a great philosopher,
then I must try to achieve that possibility... it is more then
just mere survival that I work for, more then just achieving my
basic needs of food, water, shelter, health care, education.....

if we are engaged in our basic level, like we are right now, today,
then we cannot begin the transformation of going from animal
to animal/human to becoming fully human....we must rise
from just meeting our basic physical needs, which is what most
people do today....and that means we are on the level of animals...
nothing more then just being animals....if we only try to reach our
lowest, most basic level of existence......

so, how are you going to transcend your level of existence?

how are you going to rise above being just an animal and attempting
to rise above the base level most people are on, the animal level in
which you are only trying to meet your physical needs of food, water,
shelter, warm, health care and education.... how are you going to
go from this basic animal existence to becoming more human?

how are you going to engage with human values of love, of esteem,
of safety and security, of an engagement with belonging?

you do have something above you.... that is reaching the level of
self-actualization.. of achieving your possibilities.....
of becoming an artist or an philosopher or an musician, to travel, of self-education,
learning new skills for example..... of rising above mere reaching your physical needs....

the current system of capitalism is designed to keep you at your lowest level of
existence... of the seeking only of food, water, shelter, health care.....

but no more, rise above this mere seeking the lower level of existence....
and begin the path of transcending being a mere animal and becoming
something above just being animal... an engagement with becoming
animal/human and then to becoming fully human and then becoming
something else all together, no longer animal... rising above instincts
and no longer being human, rising above mere rational thought...

but becoming that unites the various aspect of being human....

that is what self-actualization really means, where we unite
all sides of being human... the rational, the emotional, the
psychological, our needs....into one big package where we
can say yes or no, to whatever drive us into action, be it
mental, emotional, psychological......

where we are in control, where we decide our actions and our feelings
about those actions.... no longer out of control in regards to
our feelings and emotions and instincts.. for we control the
animal aspect of who we are....... and that is what it means to
be human....to control the animal part of who we are and rise above it.....

to become human.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:04 pm

are human beings, "spirit in the world?"

No, we human beings are physical, historical, active beings in the world.......

we have past, present and future available to us but we should focus on
present and future, for the past is a study of what was, and is no longer....

for example, a study of the presidency of George Washington is a
study of the presidency that was, past, as it was in Washington time,
it no longer exists that way....

our engagement today is with overcoming the past, and going from here
to there....

we are here and we want to get to there.... but we have to know what is "here"
and we have to know what is "there", so we call "there" a goal, a destination,
a possibility...... we must strive and reach and work toward getting from "here"
to "there"...we must overcome who we are "here" and to
"become what is possible for us to be"...."there"......

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
Posts: 8468
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state

Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:54 pm

let us take this idea of rising above the animal nature of
human beings.... let us look at an idea like punishment, prisons,
the judicial system.......

we, as human beings, want to see people punished for their
"crimes" against the state.... but what is the need for
revenge really about?

I would say, that the need to revenge, to punish, is
really the animal need, one of instinct to punish those
who harm us... it has no rational or logical basis...

it is pure punishment and that punishment is emotional,
pure feeling, instinct....

but what would a "rational" method of dealing with "crime" and
"criminals" look like?

if we are to take the route that crime must be punished, then
we are engaged with the animal side of us.....

we can think about punishment, in a logical and rational way....
above pure punishment, which is nothing more then revenge,
a animal way of dealing with crime....

the path of punishment as not being revenge is the path of
education.... we educate people that to seek self gratification
is to harm oneself and to harm one's society.....

can we truly educate people into being good? yes, we are doing it right now....

why do you think that vast majority of people don't engage in crime?

because they know it doesn't help them.....

that is education....the number of people who actually engage
in crime and/or criminals are actually very small.......in the U.S,
as of 2016, only 2.3 million people were incarcerated.... 2.3 million
people out of 320 million Americans...so less then 5 % of all Americans
are in jail...

one might guess that America is crime ridden but the numbers tell a far
different story....

it has been shown that the amount of crime and the amount of violent
crime has decreased over the years....and we are talking about centuries...
so, just an example, using FBI numbers, the amount of violent crime
has fallen 51% between 1993 and 2018.. the long term decline of violence
has been years in the making...... we see this...you are far safer in the streets
then ever before...violent crime includes rape, robbery and assault

this is due in part to a couple of factors, first of all, demographics,
the aging of America... as we age, we commit less violent acts,
we commit less crime... we have become wiser in regards to
the value of committing crime....

again according to FBI figures, the amount of property crime has
also decreased by 54% since 1993....property crime is burglary, theft,
motor vehicle theft and it is generally far more common then violent crime....

we live in a safer world and that isn't a perspective, that is facts......

so let us continue this ongoing trend by making education the key factor
to lower crime, both the violent and property crime...

so instead of reacting with emotions and instincts of revenge
and punishment, we react as human beings... with logic and
rational thought...we no longer have to automatically punish
to deter crime... behavior can change if we give people the
incentive to change.... to modify behavior simple requires us
to give people something to strive for beside the act of crime
and violence.....

we give people incentive to behave within human standards, not
animal standards.... we no longer have as our goal,
capitalism which means we no longer have money/profits/material goods
as being the sole exclusive point of existence.... to engage with our modern
society drive of seeking nihilistic goal of money, profits, material goods....

we seek something else... that is the goal of becoming human, not animal
which is why crime exists..... because the goal right now is to get rich,
famous, have titles, seeking the path of negation and dehumanization of
human beings..... by putting other things as the most important thing we seek such
as wealth, fame, titles, power,.... getting human beings to seek
values like love, charity, justice, hope, peace instead of the nihilistic values
of our modern society...

that is the path to ending crime and violence in society....getting people to seek
something other then materialistic goods.....to becoming wise and honest
and just.... the path of the higher being, not the path of the lower being.....

to end crime is easy enough, just give people something different then
our current materialistic society....

and to rise above our being forced to seek the basic animal needs..
to allow people to seek something above just seeking the basic needs
of food, water, shelter, education and health care....

every single human should have that as a minimum, enough food, water,
shelter, education, health care as a base example of needs to be met.....

the goal is to get as many people the basic needs as possible and you will end
a great deal of crime in the world.. you give them reason enough not to
commit crimes if they have the basic needs of food, water, shelter, education,
health care.....to make seeking the higher needs the goal of existence....

not just food and water and shelter, but seeking love/belonging, esteem,
safety/security... getting people to reach the higher level of existence
is the path to freeing people from the need to commit crimes....

to make a safer society is to make society free of the need to seek
the basic needs of existence....

feed people and clothe, shelter, educate them, to give health care and society would
be a far safer and freer place to live in.....

make the goal of existence to reach the level of self-actualization and you
create a far better and safer society.....

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Tue Sep 01, 2020 10:05 pm

In my own words, we should seek the best possible good.
This is many goods all fitting together to form higher existence.
It's cool that you've realized as far as you have.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:35 am

Dan~ wrote:=D>
In my own words, we should seek the best possible good.
This is many goods all fitting together to form higher existence.
It's cool that you've realized as far as you have.

K: thank you

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:17 pm

as I move into Modern philosophy, I am right now reading
Copleston "a History of philosophy" and the chapter is about
British Empiricism, John Stuart Mill, to be exact.....

and I am stuck by the Utilitarian beliefs of Mills and
Bentham.... one of the problems with the Utilitarian project,
that is man is seeking pleasure and happiness, first and foremost,
above all other possibilities..... and human beings avoid, Pain, most
of all.... so, human existence is the seeking of happiness/pleasure and avoiding
pain....but that so limits us and deny much of human existence... for it avoids
one of the crucial aspects of human existence, which is Altruism.....and denies
one of the basic things that happen in the field of battle... where a soldier gives
his live to save another solider or gives his life to protect some agenda....

to say, life is all about seeking happiness/pleasure.. does not and cannot account for
self-sacrifice or the sacrifice, say a parent makes for their children... as a parent,
I sacrificed plenty for my daughter and I would do the same given another chance....

and a parent who won't self-sacrifice for their children, I don't consider
them to be very good parents.....

in making this sacrifice, we don't expect any reward or pleasure or personal
happiness...in fact, the self-sacrifice of most parents isn't even noticed by
their children or other parents.... but as a parent, we know that every single
parent ever, has self-sacrificed at some point..

this point of people making personal sacrifices for the state, society, a group,
or their family is a weakness of the Utilitarian ideas of Mills and Bentham...

and upon this point lies much of the relationship between the individual
and the state......

how far does the individual go to sacrifice to protect the state?

and as always, what is the reverse? how far does the state go to
protect/sacrifice for the individual? it cannot be a one sided relationship
between the state and the individual.....it could be said, that all of
political philosophy exists within this point of the exact relationship
between the individual and the state....

what does the individual owe to the state and what does the state
owe to the individual?

the entire declaration of independence revolves around this exact point...

"that all men are created equal?"

and so, what does this mean in regards to the relationship between the
state and the individual?

so, we are created equal..... and what does that mean to my obligations
and responsibilities as an individual in regards to the state?

if I am not treated equal, does that mean that the contract between
the individual and the state, is voided?

and this being treated equal, does that mean politically, economically,
legally? If I am being treated unequal, compare to others, then has
the state voided the contract?

and here lies the entire point of Black lives matter... what is the obligation
of the state to treat me as equal to any other party within the state?

am I being treated equally, legally with the police or is equality
between the races equal?

no, the answer there is clearly no and systemic racism focal point is
the unequal treatment by the police of white people and black people....

so, to say, blue lives matter or all lives matter is irrelevant because it
doesn't answer the question that lies at the heart of " all men are created equal"

are we created equal legally, or economically or politically?

and the answer is clearly no, no on all three.....

and the question of Justice hinges upon this question of equality...
so hence if we treat people unequally either legally, politically or
economically, we aren't engaged in either justice or equality...

to accept the notion, the statement that "all men are created equal" is
to accept the Utilitarian notion of that "actions are right in the
proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to
produce the reverse of happiness"....

that all men, all human beings are equal in their own pursuit of their
what they consider to be their happiness....

one of the fundamental rights of human beings is to pursue their
own happiness and that right is violated when human beings are not
being treated equal, either politically, socially, economically or legally....

one of the basic foundations of happiness lies in being treated equally, be it
legal or economic or politically.... one of the requirement of happiness is
being treated equally, by the state, the society and the business world....

how can I be happy when I am being treated unequally by either
the state or legally or economically? or all three as the case often is....

the very concept of the Utilitarian experience, where all human beings
pursue their own concept of happiness, needs, no demands, that they
be treated equally by the various forces, socially, economically, politically,
legally....we cannot find any type of happiness if we are being treated unequally
by any one of those forces...social, state, legal and political.....

there is a linkage, a connection between the notion of seeking our happiness
and being treated equally...

the notion of Utilitarianism has been attacked for over a century,
and quite properly been attacked.... but we can overcome the notions of
Utilitarianism by connecting it to justice/equality....

"that ALL men are created equal" must have as it basis,
the equal treatment of human beings that lie within the
economical and political, the social and the legal...

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Dan~ » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:54 pm

Equal rights, not non equal living.
Some people are exceptional. Some people are terrible.
They don't all get treated equally.
Equality is a democratic idea, as far as I can tell.
America and Canada have this screwy form of democracy.
It's not the best, but it is not the worst either.

Elitism usually fails to address truly superior men.
So elitism has failed. It is a good idea, but it doesn't mix with reality.
Like communism. Communism looks like ****, because it didn't mix well with the reality of who ever applied it.
Aristocracy also looks like ****.

I guess democracy is the easiest way to survive politically.
You strike me as a democrat, Kropotkin.
Maybe I've made a mistake. But equality and democracy are bed fellows.
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Re: a new understanding of today, time and space.

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:02 pm

as we are human beings, with basic needs and wants, of which
is the need to food, water, shelter, health care, education....

all human beings, all human beings needs these basic necessities...
and in fact, all life, needs these basic necessities....

as we have such basic and obvious needs, as human beings, as life,
then we must start here.....the Utilitarian beliefs is that all human beings
seek pleasure/happiness and society must be focused upon this basic
necessity...we seek our own happiness but that is above and beyond the
seeking of the basic needs we have as human beings....

but some, some, believe that the seeking of pleasure/happiness lies
within this search for our basic needs, that pleasure and happiness
comes from our basic needs, of food, water, shelter, education, health care.....
those are the physical needs of all human beings......

we also have psychological needs of love, belonging, esteem,
safety/security... we seek these basic psychological needs just
as strongly as we seek out our physical needs...

that our pleasure/happiness is found in meeting both our physical
and our psychological needs and that much is true....but the underlying
conditions must be also met.... we, as much as we need to seek our
happiness/pleasure, we must seek being treated equal by the forces that
dominate our lives, the legal, the political, the social and the economic

we cannot, cannot find our happiness/pleasure if we are not being
treated equal, either legally, economically, socially or politically....

and this is true even if we ourselves are being treated equally,
by those forces if, if other human beings within our society are not
being treated equally, either politically, socially, economically or
legally.....how do I find my happiness if I know others are being treated
unequally, either politically, socially, economically and legally....

the act of awareness, the understanding that not everyone is being
treated equally must weigh heavily on our mind... but why, Kropotkin?

why should I care if others aren't being treated equally?

that is their problem, not my problem....

once again, we connect with the idea that the key point
of our current existence lies at the merging of my existence
and other people existence....

can I be happy if others are being unequally treated?

I don't see how...what makes a human being, truly a human being?

it lies not with the basic needs of all beings, human or not, it lies within
our understanding of existence....we are truly human beings if we feel
some understanding of what it means to be human... if we have compassion,
sympathy, pity for other beings, that is when we are our most being human....

the true mark of being human is an awareness of what it means to be human...
to suffer and to self-sacrifice and to appreciated what it means to be human...
our empathy, our compassion, our pity is what makes us human...not
in seeking our basic needs of food, water, shelter, warmth, education
or health care... that all beings have...

I may not be able to do anything about the inequalities of life, of being human
and I may not have any answers, but I can feel pity and compassion and empathy
for those who, who suffer from inequalities from the legal, social, economic
and political point of view....

once again, it isn't about seeking our happiness or our pleasures, but
it is about being aware of the burdens of inequality and its meaning to other human

existence isn't just about my immediate presence but it is about
something more then just me... it is about us.... the personal
and the collective...it is more then just seeking my own personal
happiness and pleasure.... I must engage on some level with those
around me...for I depend upon them and they depend upon me.....

I cannot just focus on the tree's around me and ignore the forest.....
I must hold the balance between myself and the collective....

what is the exact relationship between the I and the we?

the personal and the collective...

the individual and the state?

now to your way of thinking, I have hit a variety of widely different
concepts, but to mind, they are the same thing, the local, the individual,
the state are all aspects of the same issue... the true connection of human beings
with each other and within ourselves...... in history, philosophy economics...
we seek that relationship between each other, either individually or collectively....

and so we work out what is our relationship between the individual and the state
and call it philosophy and economics and politics..........

so, what is the relationship between you and the state?
what is the relationship between you and other people?
what is your relationship in regards to who you are?

so, when I seek my pleasure/my happiness, what is my relationship
between the individual self and the state?

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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