what Marxism really is.....

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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:22 pm

Silhouette wrote:
phoneutria wrote:just checking in to hear to the sound of pins dropping in this thread

Nice though, no?
Not having to wade through all the dumbdumbs dropping their litter all over the place?

*edit: fuck. Typed too soon. Can't even leave it a week apparently...


shhh he is retarded

In a consumer/capitalist driven economy like ours, yes, value is decided in part by market demand - but as I was saying that "service" is free of charge. People will want what they want for free. They have nothing to do with the cost of production. Their "consultant fees" don't exist - they inform what the labour actually does and makes into a reality. Value is also decided by supply, but that ultimately depends on how necessary the product or service is for survival in the quantities that are available - a natural limitation. Beyond that basic level it's decided by how much money people have to burn (disposable income) - even something completely without inherent value can become fetishised. Either way the consumers demand for free, and the labour supplies for a cost.

And in line with this, labour are the ones who are paid, and they're paid for the value of bringing the free intel into reality. It's easy to want something, it's hard to make it happen, so the only cost is to the people taking on the hard part: the labour. So theirs alone is the cost of production. The materials, overheads and the means of production they use are in turn the labour of suppliers. The fact that things along the way are (in name) "owned" by some guy is irrelevant to this process of consumer supply/demand (for free) and labour actually doing the making of everything involved (for a cost).


third time is a charm maybe
focus on that word value
marxism is based on a theory of value
not a theory of cost
it sets out to determine what a thing is worth
not how much a thing costs

as you said
even something without inherent value can become fetishised
a soup can with "warhol" signed on it
or whatever, a rock
a banana duct taped to a wall

things have value
and that has absolutely nothing to do with labor
they have to do with meaning
what a thing is worth to any given person is not so much related to its cost of production
as it is to what that thing means to them

laborers produce something
using materials that are not theirs
and machines that are not theirs
for a cost that is paid for in the form of a salary
from then on, they are out of the picture

by the same reasoning that the laborer has a claim on the sale value of a thing
you can make a case that a plumber who is often hired to unclog your toilet
should eventually own it

there is no basis whatsoever for the labor theory of value
there's nothing at all that can justify the claim that "surplus value" is exploitation

there's a transaction in place in which a worker performs a desired work
and he gets paid what he asks for it

there's a transaction in place in which goods exchange hands for an agreed sum

one has NOTHING to do with the other
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby promethean75 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:45 pm

'Antifa fascism', he said. Lolz. This antifa bunch amount to a handful of random college kids. But you can make them the new boogey man of the left if that works for ya.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:29 am

promethean75 wrote:'Antifa fascism', he said. Lolz. This antifa bunch amount to a handful of random college kids. But you can make them the new boogey man of the left if that works for ya.


English News wrote:The International Terrorist organization

Antifa
qualifies as an International Terrorist organization despite what the desperate mainstream US media has insisted: it is not and never has been solely a domestic US protest group. Antifa is an International Terrorist organization: the primary objective of which is the destruction of the white race. To this end they seek to facilitate unlimited immigration of non-whites and the incitement of those non-whites into open hostility once inside of white nations as a tool to achieve their racial and ideological objectives.

These organizations sought to kill the ‘intelligentsia’ of European nations in order to make us more politically docile and predictable, by eliminating geniuses, successful individuals and their entire bloodlines. This was done under the facade of ‘redistribution’ and enforcing ‘revolutionary’ dominance against ‘counter-revolutionaries’. This policy in the Soviet Union was practiced by literally killing the most intelligent, politically vigilant and aware members of the Russian nation on each generation under the justification of removing ‘counter-revolutionary’ elements. When Revolution means destroying the nation and race, counter-revolutionary means anyone or any act that seeks to preserve or not undermine fast enough the nation and race. Lenin’s first ever proclamation was to declare ‘Anti-Semitism’ (a term at the time invented only 38 years prior) a ‘counter-revolutionary’ act thus admitting that the core definition of revolutionary was ‘Semitism’ for counter-revolutionary to include ‘Anti-Semitism’.

The ideology of Antifa echoes the 1917 era Marxist-Leninist or Trotskyite form of communism more than Stalinism, Maoism or any other.

Judicial Watch wrote:Antifa Militants

Judicial Watch has successfully gone after one of the movement’s most popular figures, a national organizer for a radical leftist group called By Any Means Necessary (BAMN) which was founded by the Marxist Revolutionary Workers League and uses raucous militant tactics to disrupt conservative speaking engagements. Among its prominent figures is a California public school teacher, Yvette Felarca, well known for her violent Antifa activism. In 2016 the educator and two of her radical pals were arrested and charged with several crimes, including felony assault, for inciting a riot in Sacramento. Felarca was captured on video calling a man a Nazi and punching him in the stomach repeatedly while shouting obscenities at him. More than a dozen people were injured in the riot, at least 10 with stab wounds, and the capitol grounds suffered thousands of dollars in property damage.

Protests cost $23 million in damage wrote:Night after night, groups of demonstrators advocating against racial injustice and police brutality gather in downtown Portland. The protests have been occurring regularly for about six weeks.

Portland Police Bureau Deputy Chief Chris Davis says there has been an estimated $23 million in damage and lost business in downtown Portland since the protests began.

Antifa's history and current status wrote: The anti-fascism movement has been around since the days of Hitler, but today's antifa movement is much different.

Antifa in Portland: quite often we see them as some of the most disruptive demonstrators on the streets. But antifa can't always be picked out in the crowd.

Our VERIFY team found that antifa, which stands for anti-fascist, is a loosely connected series of groups with shared left or extreme left ideology, that has no central governing body, no defined roles and because of their admitted secrecy, it’s hard to know how many people count themselves as members.

Portland State University history professor Marc Rodriguez studies social protest movements. He said this century's antifa grew out of the World Trade Organization protests in 1999, taking on economic globalization in a big way in Seattle.

FBI Director Wray wrote:"Antifa is a real thing. It's not a group or an organization. It's a movement, or an ideology may be one way of thinking of it," Wray said. "And we have quite a number -- and I've said this quite consistently since my first time appearing before this committee -- we have any number of properly predicated investigations into what we would describe as violent anarchist extremists and some of those individuals self-identify with Antifa."

Seattle Mayor paid artist to write anti-police, pro-Antifa messages wrote:A Seattle artist who had helped restore a Black Lives Matter outside a former so-called “autonomous zone” has let it slip that the city had paid him to do so during a recent livestream.

“Hey look, and the funniest thing about this is – the City of Seattle is paying me to do this. So, it’s beautiful, you know what I’m saying?” said Dahvee Enciso, a muralist and the “crew chief” hired by the Seattle Department of Transportation (SDOT). Enciso said this while laughing and showing off some of the slogans he and his friends had written on the mural.

“No good cops in a racist system. Jenny Durkan, you’re next.” he added, seemingly threatening Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan with violence. This is despite the fact that she’s actually his main financial backer for the project.

Sure, just a "handful of random college kids".

I could go on and on with references that indicate a much different truth but I already know that truth doesn't matter to Marxists. Hypocrisy, being the opposite of what you profess, is the frame of the game.

Mao Tse Tung called it "Guerilla Warfare"
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Mowk » Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:29 am

Some brands of what some people call truth just ain't the truth anyway. regardless of the degree of their insistence. Unless you support a fascist dictator wanna be that says it is.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby promethean75 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:18 am

Yes I've read many articles written on and about antifa though I dont trust much of it. I have fairly reliable sources of my own who I trust, and who is very knowledgeable about the matter. I'll post some stuff I've read in quora. This part is in a response to some question about antifa. Note that all the links the writer provides through the post are missing; couldn't copy and paste a hyperlink I guess.

What we deny is that Antifa is an organisation: they have no buildings (owned or rented), assets, bank accounts, vans, official cars, phone lines, offices (owned or rented), leaders, employees, members, business addresses, PO Boxes, or spokespersons. Zippo.

Antifa activists are a loose affiliation of the those who want to oppose fascism, anyone who enables fascism or who attempt to make its ideas ‘acceptable’. That’s it. Period.

The questioner alleges many things about Antifa, but offers no evidence. And when others are asked for evidence they respond in one or more of the following ways:

(1) They post links to newspaper reports ('left-wing', centrist, or even right wing sources) that advance the same allegations, but which also fail to provide any evidence that those involved were actually Antifa, and not some other group. Those who attend to such media also simply assume that they must be Antifa, especially if they are repeatedly told it is Antifa, but that is an assumption they never test with evidence, either. Nor do they even ask for such evidence. These pseudo-facts are then proliferated across the internet as if they were gospel truth -- and then it becomes a factoid that "everyone knows".

(2) They post links to heavily edited videos of dubious provenance that also fail to show that those captured on film (i) were indeed Antifa and not some other group, (ii) weren't in fact agent provocateurs (far right or ‘law enforcement’), or (iii) were perhaps Antifa activists defending themselves from an earlier attack that had been edited out.

Police under fire as trial collapses over 'agent provocateur' claims

The Wonderful American World of Informers and Agents Provocateurs

Remember ‘Umbrella Man’ caught on video smashing windows in Minneapolis at the end of May, well:

Minneapolis police say 'Umbrella Man' was a white supremacist trying to incite George Floyd rioting

US Judge furious at police provocateurs:

——————————————-

(3) They become annoyed and ask why they need to provide any proof, since "everyone knows" it is Antifa. The same people are those who will require cast iron proof that, for example, Trump is a serial liar and a racist, but who will also reject with no little vehemence the fact that "everyone knows" he is a racist and a serial liar as "fake news". When it suits them, they demand proof; when it doesn't, they become allergic to evidence, or they develop a convenient case of selective blindness.

That is quite apart from the fact that Trump’s Justice Department and the FBI have both confirmed that Antifa aren’t involved in the recent protests (so Trump, Barr and the right-wing media are lying when they assert the opposite):

The FBI Finds ‘No Intel Indicating Antifa Involvement’

Justice Department records show no links to antifa in protests

Hundreds of FBI files were hacked a couple of months ago which show that the cops have been exaggerating the threat that Antifa pose — but the exact opposite for the very real threat coming in from White Supremacism —, in order to justify their use of excessive force against protesters:

Leaked Documents Show Police Knew Far-Right Extremists Were the Real Threat at Protests, Not “Antifa”

The questioner mentions activists who have been ‘harrassing’ people in restaurants, but they were anti-Trumpers, not Antifa. If the questioner has proof they were Antifa, let’s see it.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:31 am

I'm simply surprised you haven't joined in yet Prom. I would have taken you for an early signup to the Commie Club. They already have two street executions under their belt, massive rioting, destruction of small businesses, and excused violence against anybody who is "RACIS!"

I mean, I'm sure Silhouette is already signed up and on-board with the Marxist Revolution, and applauding the violence.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:34 am

I've been watching some North Korean defector videos:



I can imagine Prom, Sil, and the Marxist crew trying to convince the defectors how bad Western civilization is and how great North Korea is.

After all, North Korea is the Marxist/Communist Utopia, or at least the closest thing the world has seen.



Ironic how Sil and Prom aren't so gung ho to go actually join a Marxist society??? What's up with that??? If you hate Capitalism so much, why stay?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby obsrvr524 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:42 am

promethean75 wrote:Yes I've read many articles written on and about antifa though I dont trust much of it. I have fairly reliable sources of my own who I trust

Exactly who would that be? Quora - a website for random political pundits?

Quora

403. Forbidden.

You don't have permission to view this page.


promethean75 wrote:
What we deny is that Antifa is an organisation: they have no buildings (owned or rented), assets, bank accounts, vans, official cars, phone lines, offices (owned or rented), leaders, employees, members, business addresses, PO Boxes, or spokespersons. Zippo.

So "Zippo's" argument is that because they are not a government official organization, they are merely "activists who are a loose affiliation of the those who want to oppose fascism, anyone who enables fascism or who attempt to make its ideas ‘acceptable’. That’s it. Period."

And never mind that they are themselves a intimidation promoting, fear mongering, gang of violent thugs supporting their political agenda - FASCIST - not at all like Hitler's Brown Coats.

promethean75 wrote:The questioner alleges many things about Antifa, but offers no evidence. And when others are asked for evidence they respond in one or more of the following ways:


Typical hypocrisy - again the frame of the game.

As I said, I know you will never change your mind, denying ALL evidence regardless of its source because you only accept the vague punditry and rhetoric of those who promote what you want to believe while disregarding all of the burning, looting, baseball bats, bombs, guns, bricks, and everything else they use to destroy businesses (even one's who agree with their supposed cause) and anyone the slightest bit associated with conservatives. Yeah, a very innocent and honest "handful of random college kids".

Obviously you don't care what is or is not true. That is why I asked long ago "Why do you want to be lied to?" from which I got no response. Child minded people are that way, "I don't care what those sinister, oppressive doctors say, I WANT ICE CREAM FOR EVERY DINNER!!"
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:48 am

promethean75 wrote:The questioner alleges many things about Antifa, but offers no evidence.



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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby promethean75 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:59 am

Only that antifa is not a substantial enough 'force' to warrant the kind of attention it gets, and that it isn't representative of leftism in general.

I think it began as a trend somewhere maybe Portland and became a meme online and in media. It's a unorganized and spontaneous event if they ever do show, and there is absolutely no hierarchy of leadership or even a basic statement of intent... except for the obvious.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby robolutionary » Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:09 pm

Ehem. I hope my posts haven't been forgotten...
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:10 am

Antifa has been around protesting internationally for at least 40 years with their own handbook, flag, dress code, websites, meeting halls, etc., well organized and funded.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:35 am

WendyDarling wrote:Antifa has been around protesting internationally for at least 40 years with their own handbook, flag, dress code, websites, meeting halls, etc., well organized and funded.



K: just because faux news said so, doesn't mean its true.... I was an anarchist for many
years well into the 1990's and I live on the west coast and I didn't heard of Antifa
well into the 2000's......so, no....

so, where is your proof? I know, you will find some excuse to blow me off,
you usually do....

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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby promethean75 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:11 pm

Urwrong, North Korea is about as marxist as anton lavey is shinto.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:54 pm

prom
labor theory of value
ready, set, go
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby promethean75 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:02 pm

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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:16 pm

promethean75 wrote:Urwrong, North Korea is about as marxist as anton lavey is shinto.

Who do you think is going to be in charge of the Labor Unions after the Workers unite?

(Dear Party Leader)
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby phoneutria » Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:33 pm

promethean75 wrote:https://youtu.be/vi1-IihX6yY?t=13


https://youtu.be/hWJX9yUKJeQ?t=18
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:58 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:Antifa has been around protesting internationally for at least 40 years with their own handbook, flag, dress code, websites, meeting halls, etc., well organized and funded.



K: just because faux news said so, doesn't mean its true.... I was an anarchist for many
years well into the 1990's and I live on the west coast and I didn't heard of Antifa
well into the 2000's......so, no....

so, where is your proof? I know, you will find some excuse to blow me off,
you usually do....

Kropotkin


https://www.adl.org/antifa
These antifa sometimes use a logo with a double flag, usually in black and red. The antifa movement began in the 1960s in Europe, and had reached the US by the end of the 1970s. Most people who show up to counter or oppose white supremacist public events are peaceful demonstrators, but when antifa show up, as they frequently do, they can increase the chances that an event may turn violent.


How many examples of proof do you want, Peter? One above is by the Libtard ADL. So I was wrong, Antifa's been around internationally longer than 40 years, more like 60 years, but as usual you have no clue Peter because the MSM left out their history and named them a USA phenomenon.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/X56rQkDgd0qqB7R68t6t7C/seven-things-you-need-to-know-about-antifa
How long have Antifa been around?
Some Antifa groups date the origins of their movement to fights against European fascists in the 1920s and 1930s. Mark Bray, author of Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, says the modern American Antifa movement began in the 1980s with a group called Anti-Racist Action. Its members confronted neo-Nazi skinheads at punk gigs in the American Midwest and elsewhere. By the early 2000s the Antifa movement was mostly dormant - until the rise of Donald Trump and the alt-right.


https://actionnetwork.org/fundraising/the-international-anti-fascist-defence-fund
The International Anti-fascist Defence Fund provides emergency support to anti-fascists anywhere in the world, whenever they find themselves in a difficult situation as a result of their stand against hate. Whether it’s replacing damaged/stolen property, paying medical bills, helping them find a safe place to stay, funding legal defence, helping their families, or doing antifa prisoner support, this Fund seeks to alleviate the harm that results from doing the right thing sometimes.

In its first four years The International Anti-Fascist Defence Fund has donated more than $75,000USD to over 400 anti-fascists and anti-racists in eighteen countries!

Anyone can make a proposal to support an anti-fascist by contacting us.

We depend entirely on donations to do our work and can accept monthly recurring donations or one-time donations. Any group or individual that donates more than $20US/€20/£15 will be invited to help make decisions on proposals and requests the Defence Fund receives.

The International Anti-Fascist Defence Fund is a great way to show real solidarity with anti-fascists and anti-racists worldwide when they need our support the most!

To find out more, check out our blog.

FIGHTING HATE IS NOT A CRIME!
ANTI-FASCISM = SELF-DEFENCE!
SOLIDARITY IS OUR WEAPON!


Unorganized, right, with their own international defense league for assaulting people, destroying property, and murder, that's called "doing the right thing." Yay!
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Meno_ » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:19 pm

Yea, but the size of the budget ( $75,000 in 4 year), does not exemplify it , as to consider it anything beyond insignificance, not worthy of mention.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby WendyDarling » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:23 pm

That above isn't the only antifa defense fund Meno, quit being so damn naive. Frickin' Kamala Harris is donating to the Portland and Seattle funds. The number of antifascist defense funds currently employed is probably in the hundreds, so no, not insignificant and very worth mentioning.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby fuse » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:50 pm

WendyDarling wrote:That above isn't the only antifa defense fund Meno, quit being so damn naive. Frickin' Kamala Harris is donating to the Portland and Seattle funds.

I couldn't verify this in a google search. Would you mind sharing your source that Harris donated to an antifa defense fund?
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:35 am

fuse wrote:I couldn't verify this in a google search. Would you mind sharing your source that Harris donated to an antifa defense fund?

Took me 10 seconds to find it:

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/rep ... c-abusers/

It's not surprising how much you, PK, and the Marxist Apologists want to ignore reality though.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby fuse » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:43 am

Urwrongx1000 wrote:
fuse wrote:I couldn't verify this in a google search. Would you mind sharing your source that Harris donated to an antifa defense fund?

Took me 10 seconds to find it:

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/rep ... c-abusers/

It's not surprising how much you, PK, and the Marxist Apologists want to ignore reality though.

That's a Minnesota bail/bond fund for people who can't afford to bail themselves from jail while they await pending charges/trial. They post bail or bond for people in general. They don't defend people in court or otherwise.
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Re: what Marxism really is.....

Postby Urwrongx1000 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:56 am

"MINNESOTA – Since the end of May, large cities from coast to coast have seen nightly violent protests where buildings were destroyed, businesses were looted, and law enforcement officers were assaulted. In response, Senator Kamala Harris (D-CA), Democrat vice president nominee, promoted a bail fund to “bail out” rioters.

Harris, posted on her Twitter account:

“If you’re able to, chip in now to the @MNFreedomFund to help post bail for those protesting on the ground in Minnesota.”

The fund, called the Minnesota Freedom Fund not only “freed” rioters, but it also helped free five convicted domestic abusers and one accused domestic abuser from jail, including two men who allegedly strangled women."


Anything else, Marxist Sympathizer???

Are you intentionally blinding your eyes, or you just can't read???
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