reaching utopia....

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reaching utopia....

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:58 pm

Utopia: an imagined place or state of mind in which
everything is perfect.

we have had many different writings and thoughts about
how to reach Utopia....the first modern person who wrote about Utopia
was Thomas More in 1516....

and we can follow its path through the Marxian idea where when
we reach the "classless" society, that is an implied utopia....

the right is always accusing the left of promoting various types of
utopian ideas....

but in the search for a utopia, we have missed the fundamental
issue involved in the creation of a utopia....

we have failed because we see utopia has being out there....
like the search for dragons or seeking to become a hero...
it is thought that lies outside of us... Utopia is thought of
as being a physical place somewhere out there....

but that is wrong... utopia isn't a physical place... it is a
state of mind.. Utopia is found inside of us...

a utopia isn't about some political or economic system,
it is about us working out our being soul sick....
once we become mentally healthy individuals, that is the path
to a utopia...

utopia is where we work out our various possibilities
of being human, where we become alive to
the possibilities of being human...

I am alive to what it means to be human, both the possible
lower instinctual possibilities and the higher possibilities
of love and hope and freedom and justice and peace.....

a utopia come around once we reject the lower instinctual possibilities
and engage in the higher possibilities of being human...
where we can reject the possibilities of violence and hate
and anger and lust and greed.... where we seek the higher possibilities
of love and hope and justice and freedom and peace and charity and........

when we no longer see human beings divided up into colors or races
or creeds or nationalities...... when we no longer see others in terms
of "US vs THEM"..... We see everyone as being equal and equal in
their possibilities of reaching their own possibilities of love and hope
and peace and justice and.....

that is is utopia....when people are capable of reaching their own
possibilities without the hate and violence that accompanies some
when others are attempting to reach their possibilities....

in other words, when some see others begin to reach their possibilities,
that brings out the lower values of some people, envy and in that envy,
that people are reaching something that you might never have,
so you react with violence and hate toward them....if I see someone
reaching something that I want like love and happiness, I become
full of envy and react with violence and hatred toward those who
are reaching something I want.....that is, in part, the reason,
why people who seek love are derided and attacked.... because
those who deride and attack the seekers of love, are jealous of
the seekers of love and peace.....if I see someone who is happy and I am
not happy, I am jealous and full of envy and so I will attack them for
having something I don't have....

when we come to the point where we can be happy for those who are
in love or are happy, and we are happy for them, then we are closer
to finding utopia..... utopia is a state of mind.. not a physical place...

and we can reach utopia if we work on our own state of mind..
if we work to reach our own possibilities and allow others to reach
their own possibilities.......... utopia is not only achievable but is possible...

all it takes is us to overcome our lower instincts of hate and violence and
anger and greed...

utopia is a needed and neccessary next step of human beings...

we just have to become who we are .....


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
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Re: reaching utopia....

Postby promethean75 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:45 pm

Peter on behalf of the nihilo-anarchistic stirnerite egoist internationale, we ask that you not use the term 'utopia' when describing societies economically identifiable as socialistic. That term has gotten our platform into all kinds of trouble in the ranks of the amateur critics of Marxism and the doltish propensity of the ill-conceived sophomoric drivel we are forced to daily bear in horror while part of this institution.

And while a resolution with our contemporaries seems as unlikely as it would be demanding of our most tasked efforts, we nonetheless hold true to the principle of freedom of philosophical speech and defend to our virtual deaths, their right to oppose us, verily.
promethean75
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Re: reaching utopia....

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:19 pm

promethean75 wrote:Peter on behalf of the nihilo-anarchistic stirnerite egoist internationale, we ask that you not use the term 'utopia' when describing societies economically identifiable as socialistic. That term has gotten our platform into all kinds of trouble in the ranks of the amateur critics of Marxism and the doltish propensity of the ill-conceived sophomoric drivel we are forced to daily bear in horror while part of this institution.

And while a resolution with our contemporaries seems as unlikely as it would be demanding of our most tasked efforts, we nonetheless hold true to the principle of freedom of philosophical speech and defend to our virtual deaths, their right to oppose us, verily.


K: I suppose if you had read my post, you would know that I am not advocating
Utopia as a person, place, thing or anything physical... not as economic nor
a political system....

reaching Utopia is actually about a state of mind...
it occurs once a person, all persons of a society have begun
the process of understanding who they are and what it means
to be human.....when enough people have an understanding
of what it means to be human and what is the goal of us human
beings, both individually and collectively....

what would a utopia as I have identified it, what would it look like?

first of all, ism's and ideologies, would be gone....what is the value of
an ism or an ideology? it serves as a road map of what is possible
and what isn't possible... but it is a road map made up of other people's
vision....

and example of this is Christianity.....it represents a plug and play
vision of where one stands within a society...

for example, at birth, we are guilty... we are born, deep in sin..
that identifies our beginning place.... and we spend our lives trying to
escape being guilty, full of sin... we seek salvation, which is escape from
the sin of birth....and this vision, this ism then tells us what "we are to do?"
and "what we ought to hope for?"....we are suppose to spend our lives escaping
this "being in sin"... that is our day to day mission and in the end, we achieve
salvation if, if we do as we are told.... obey the word of god.... recall, that
the crime of humanity is insubordination...being insubordinate is a crime
in religion, politics, work.... so to avoid the crime of insubordination....
we must follow the word of god and follow the path that he laid down.....
and any deviation from this laid out, set path, is insubordination
and is punishable by being sent to hell....

and heaven, isn't a utopia... it is anything but a utopia....
I hold that heaven is the exact opposite of a utopia...
but hay, that's me.....

My vision of utopia isn't capitalism or communism or Catholicism
or any other ism or ideology.......

it is when we as human beings don't seek irrelevant or worthless
baubles like money or fame or power or titles... and we don't
seek the values of the lower instincts, hate and anger and lust and greed,
just to name a few of the lower values we human can descend to....

no, utopia is when we seek the higher values of human existence..
and we give each other the space to engage in such seeking....

if I hold different views from you, you don't attempt to negate
or dehumanize me.... you simply give me the space to engage
in my search for what is possible for me..... and I give you the
space to engage in your own search for what is possible for you....

so, what this means in practical term is that we don't have battles over
such social issues as abortion or gay marriage any other social issue....
because I am free to seek what is my possibilities which can be
gay marriage or an abortion...but what about people who engage
in "sick" possibilities like animal sex or being a pedophile?

our pursuit of what is possible is about morals and what is right and wrong....
those are some of the possibilities that we can engage in...

one of the key terms in this utopia is the word consent...
we, as a society, have consent as being a function of age....

for example, we don't allow anyone under 18 to engage in
a wide engagement of activities.... Legally, anyone under
18 cannot engage in sexual activity or have a gun or
smoke or get married or a hundred of activities that
we have decided that they must be old enough to engage in....

recently, the age to buy cigarettes was raised from 18 to 21....
in California, I cannot speak to any other state, and I have no problem with
the age of consent being raised to 21..... but we ,either rationally or
instinctually, know that certain activities aren't suitable for
anyone under a certain age... so to protect those who we admit
aren't capable of making decisions, which we show by an age of
consent, we try to protect them with this age of consent.....

so, no, I am not advocating pedophilia.... I am against it because
of the fact that those who are under the age of 18 are incapable of
making decisions based on the fact that they are too young to
understand the implications of those decisions....
we decide for them....by giving an age of consent for
certain actions.... and this is a reasonable decision made by a society.....

and one in which the vast majority of people in that society agree to....

one of the roles of a society is to protect those who are unable to
protect themselves... and the young, by being young are unable
to protect themselves adequately and so we give them protection by
having a consent of age for them.......

but for the rest of us..... what is the point of having a society?

we need a society to up us get the lower level, physical needs that
we need to survive... we must have food, water, shelter, education,
health care.. and to achieve those basic bodily functions, we need
and must have a society.....

but along with the need for a society, we also
have psychological needs that a society allows by
helping us to reach our basic physical needs.....

but to reach my possibilities, I don't need society to tell
me what my possibilities are and how to reach them....
for example, a society telling me that my possibilities
are engaged with the pursuit of wealth and fame and
power and titles..... when I am engaged in seeking
my own possibilities...

I am free to seek my own possibilities and that is the point....

right now, if I seek my own possibilities I am attacked
and ridiculed.... to seek wisdom over wealth and power,
that is frowned upon....and I will hear it from all concerned....

as I have during my life.....

I guess what I am calling for is a new relationship between the society
and the individual members of that society....

society is to support us in our efforts to meet our daily needs of
the lower level of food, water, shelter, education, health care....

but to reach our possibilities, we don't need society to tell us
what our possibilities are....

so we have a two track system... first track is our support of
our society/state/media and then society support of us....

and the second track is to give us enough space and time, to allow
us to achieve our goals/possibilities...

If I want to achieve as my goal/possibility, the 4 minute mile,
I tell society that possibility/goal and society/state, helps
me reach it by allowing me to achieve my lower level needs
of food, water, shelter, education, health care......

we have a new imagining of what a society it..... it doesn't
tell us what to do, it helps us reach our own goals.. and we
contribute by our taxes.....

but it all stems from an understanding of who we are and
what it means to be human....

we cure our soul sickness and then we no longer
need society to play the role it does today.......

right and wrong and good and evil and the meaning of life
is confused because we are messed up and soul sick.....

if we cure ourselves, we can have a new and different relationship
with society and the state.....

some of us needs a lot of help from the society/state and some of us do not...
we make that decision as to how much help society/state is to give us.....

right now, business with the state/society is pretty much an all or nothing
proposition......where it needs to be a much more of a menu of help
to give us or not....

if we cure our soul sickness, we can have a new and far different
relationship with the state and the society....

have you ever been sick? I know I have been really sick...
and my decision making process was fucked up.. I made
wrong decision after wrong decision when I was sick
and once I was healthy, I could make better decisions....

and the same is true of us in regards to our being soul sick....

our current society/state is there because we are soul sick...
and it reflects our being soul sick......... the very way the
state and the society is currently set up is a direct consequence of our
being soul sick....

the so called "nanny state" exists because we haven't taken
responsibility for who we are and what are possibilities are.....

all of this is so interconnected that it is hard to separate out the
society and the state and our individual selves....

so I guess I am calling for a new relationship between ourselves
and the society/state...

and it all begins with us becoming aware of who we are
and what are our possibilities.....

to know thyself and to become who you are... which is to say,
what are your possibilities?

the two paradigms that have been with philosophy since the very beginning of
philosophy....

so to return to my theme, utopia is not a place, person or thing,
it is a state of mind... once we have cured ourselves of being soul sick....

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
Peter Kropotkin
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 8436
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:47 am
Location: blue state


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