Wholeness

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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:55 am

tentative wrote:Is it possible that wholeness is releasing wholeness? Chuang Tzu lamented that he could find no one who had released words so that he might sit down and have a word with him. Irony? Perhaps Jungian philosophy isn't very clear because too many words met themselves coming and going. It might be that Jung is best understood in silence and understanding ourselves in even deeper silence.


Ha!
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:54 pm

Interesting response. Thanks.
felix dakat wrote:
Aware-ness wrote:What are the methods to achieve wholeness? Can it be accomplished by intellectual discourse?

I think that just maybe this concern for wholeness is a modern invention/concern. I don't think it was a concern of hunter-gathers, of stone agers. Was it a concern during pre-written-language times?

Is it a sign of our age that we're suddenly concerned about wholeness? What has happened that has produce this need for wholeness?

felix dakat wrote:If wholeness is achieved at all it is not achieved by a method but by a process of individuation. CG Jung did develop analytic psychology as a means of facilitating the process of individuation. But the process itself is natural.

Can you please explain what you mean by individuation and natural?

felix dakat wrote:Why do you think prehistoric humans were not concerned about wholeness? It's a natural human process. And they did produce mandala-like circular artworks which may have been symbols of wholeness.

How do you know mandalas are concerning wholeness? Cave paintings at Lascaux dating 17,000 yrs ago, seem to depict the hunt, not wholeness.

felix dakat wrote:People have a psychological need to establish order and unity out of chaos. The duality of order & chaos is seen in the symbol of the Tao which is itself a mandala and a symbol of wholeness. The symbol of the Tao is ancient not a sudden sign of our age.

I love the Tao Te Ching, and I realize the yin/yang circle could be read into as wholeness. But it's unquestionably dualistic ; a dualistic wholeness, if you must. Sure it's an ancient writing, but can you show me in the Tao Te Ching where it speaks of wholeness?

And to digress : Taoism is a religion. A religion founded during the "flat earth days" ; the days when the sun and moon, et al went around the earth ; the days when weather, lightning, storms, as well as earthquakes and volcanoes, were controlled by a spook(s) ; the days when religion was very important to understand -- or misunderstand -- very scary mysteries. Maybe religion -- such as the Tao -- was an attempt to be whole with all that ; to become whole with the stars and unknown forces. Is that wholeness?


felix dakat wrote:Part of the task in Taoism and Jung’s psychology on the way to wholeness is to let go of ego and kill the false self so that our true self will emerge. This is symbolized by the hero myth including death and rebirth narratives. Wholeness entails balancing the conscious and unconscious aspects of the psyche.

Maybe you can show where Jung's task is wholeness -- he treated schizophrenics -- but can you really speak for what the Tao's task is concerning wholeness? Isn't that like preachers that claim to be speaking for God?


Thanks again Catmando
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:25 pm

This is a cut and paste from The Essential Jung, page 332. Here Jung speaks of wholeness (emphasis mine):

"332 "UNUS MUNDUS" AND SYNCHRONICITY
There I would trespass upon all manner of religious convictions. Living in the West, I would have to say Christ instead of "self," in the Near East it would be Khidr, in the Far East atman or Tao or the Buddha, in the Far West maybe a hare or Mondamin, and in cabalism it would be Tifereth. Our world has shrunk, and it is dawning on us that humanity is one, with one psyche. Humility is a not inconsiderable virtue which should prompt Christians, for the sake of charity ­the greatest of all virtues — to set a good example and acknowledge that though there is only one truth it speaks in many tongues, and that if we still cannot see this it is simply due to lack of understanding. No one is so godlike that he alone knows the true word. All of us gaze into that "dark glass" in which the dark myth takes shape, adumbrating the invisible truth. In this glass the eyes of the spirit glimpse an image which we call the self, fully conscious of the fact that it is an anthropomorphic image which we have merely named but not explained. By "self' we mean psychic wholeness, but what realities underlie this concept we do not know, because psychic contents cannot be observed in their unconscious state, and moreover the psyche cannot know itself. The conscious can know the unconscious only so far as it has become conscious. We have only a very hazy idea of the changes an unconscious content undergoes in the process of becoming conscious, but no certain knowledge. The concept of psychic wholeness necessarily implies an element of transcendence on account of the existence of unconscious components. Transcen­dence in this sense is not equivalent to a metaphysical postulate or hypostasis; it claims to be no more than a borderline concept, to quote Kant."
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:04 pm

Aware-ness wrote:Can you please explain what you mean by individuation and natural?


Given your acquaintance with CG Jung and the Tao te Ching I find your questions surprising.
C.G. Jung wrote quote” I use the term individuation to denote the process by which a person becomes a psychological in-dividual that is a separate indivisible Unity or whole.” [CW vol. 9i,p. 275]
Natural means existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.


How do you know mandalas are concerning wholeness? Cave paintings at Lascaux dating 17,000 yrs ago, seem to depict the hunt, not wholeness.

According to art therapist and mental health counselor Susanne F. Fincher, we owe the re-introduction of mandalas into modern Western thought to Carl Gustav Jung, the Swiss analytical psychologist. In his pioneering exploration of the unconscious through his own art making, Jung observed the motif of the circle spontaneously appearing. The circle drawings reflected his inner state at that moment. Familiarity with the philosophical writings of India prompted Jung to adopt the word "mandala" to describe these circle drawings he and his patients made. In his autobiography, Jung wrote:
I sketched every morning in a notebook a small circular drawing, ... which seemed to correspond to my inner situation at the time. ... Only gradually did I discover what the mandala really is: ... the Self, the wholeness of the personality, which if all goes well is harmonious.
— Carl Jung, Memories, Dreams, Reflections, pp. 195–196.
Jung recognized that the urge to make mandalas emerges during moments of intense personal growth. Their appearance indicates a profound re-balancing process is underway in the psyche. The result of the process is a more complex and better integrated personality.
The mandala serves a conservative purpose—namely, to restore a previously existing order. But it also serves the creative purpose of giving expression and form to something that does not yet exist, something new and unique. ... The process is that of the ascending spiral, which grows upward while simultaneously returning again and again to the same point.
— Jungian analyst Marie-Louise von Franz, C. G. Jung: Man and His Symbols, p. 225
Creating mandalas helps stabilize, integrate, and re-order inner life.[36]
American art therapist Joan Kellogg continued in Jung's work and created a diagnostic tool – MARI card test.[37]
According to the psychologist David Fontana, its symbolic nature can help one "to access progressively deeper levels of the unconscious, ultimately assisting the meditator to experience a mystical sense of oneness with the ultimate unity from which the cosmos in all its manifold forms arises."[38] Wikipedia

Examples of prehistorical mandalas include:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm ... nsJNopP3pM


I love the Tao Te Ching, and I realize the yin/yang circle could be read into as wholeness. But it's unquestionably dualistic ; a dualistic wholeness, if you must. Sure it's an ancient writing, but can you show me in the Tao Te Ching where it speaks of wholeness?


“If you want to become whole, let yourself be partial.” Tao 22

Mitchell, Stephen. Tao Te Ching: A New English Version (Perennial Classics) (p. 25). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.



And to digress : Taoism is a religion. A religion founded during the "flat earth days" ; the days when the sun and moon, et al went around the earth ; the days when weather, lightning, storms, as well as earthquakes and volcanoes, were controlled by a spook(s) ; the days when religion was very important to understand -- or misunderstand -- very scary mysteries. Maybe religion -- such as the Tao -- was an attempt to be whole with all that ; to become whole with the stars and unknown forces. Is that wholeness?


The human organism is the product of 3.5 billion years of evolution. Psychologically we have changed very little since the Tao Te Ching was written. The collective unconscious is essentially the same. There are "unknown forces" within us that can only be read indirectly from the images that arise spontaneous to mind in dreams and other mental phenomena. Modern culture has taught us to ignore this stuff. Jungian and archetypal psychology directs us to become conscious of them.

Maybe you can show where Jung's task is wholeness -- he treated schizophrenics -- but can you really speak for what the Tao's task is concerning wholeness? Isn't that like preachers that claim to be speaking for God?[/quote]

This is a cut and paste from The Essential Jung, page 332. Here Jung speaks of wholeness (emphasis mine):

"332 "UNUS MUNDUS" AND SYNCHRONICITY
There I would trespass upon all manner of religious convictions. Living in the West, I would have to say Christ instead of "self," in the Near East it would be Khidr, in the Far East atman or Tao or the Buddha, in the Far West maybe a hare or Mondamin, and in cabalism it would be Tifereth. Our world has shrunk, and it is dawning on us that humanity is one, with one psyche. Humility is a not inconsiderable virtue which should prompt Christians, for the sake of charity ­the greatest of all virtues — to set a good example and acknowledge that though there is only one truth it speaks in many tongues, and that if we still cannot see this it is simply due to lack of understanding. No one is so godlike that he alone knows the true word. All of us gaze into that "dark glass" in which the dark myth takes shape, adumbrating the invisible truth. In this glass the eyes of the spirit glimpse an image which we call the self, fully conscious of the fact that it is an anthropomorphic image which we have merely named but not explained. By "self' we mean psychic wholeness, but what realities underlie this concept we do not know, because psychic contents cannot be observed in their unconscious state, and moreover the psyche cannot know itself. The conscious can know the unconscious only so far as it has become conscious. We have only a very hazy idea of the changes an unconscious content undergoes in the process of becoming conscious, but no certain knowledge. The concept of psychic wholeness necessarily implies an element of transcendence on account of the existence of unconscious components. Transcen­dence in this sense is not equivalent to a metaphysical postulate or hypostasis; it claims to be no more than a borderline concept, to quote Kant."


"Only in being lived by the Tao can you be truly yourself." Tao 22

Mitchell, Stephen. Tao Te Ching: A New English Version (Perennial Classics) (p. 26). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:57 pm

Happy Easter everyone! Hooray for fertility and rebirth!
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby MagsJ » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:42 am

.
For you, Felix :)

Image

Image
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:22 pm

Thank you MagsJ. What a hoot!
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:04 pm

“If you want to become whole, let yourself be partial.” Tao 22

Mitchell, Stephen. Tao Te Ching: A New English Version (Perennial Classics) (p. 25). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.


This is very interesting.
This is what I arrived at in my study of the kabbalic sephira Hod. The process of creation from God to World must undergo at one point a splintering, so as for individual beings to be able to exist.

So, first we would have to immerse ourselves in acceptance of our limits, as splinters of God lacking the power to oversee the Whole of Being, and only then can we become whole as parts of being.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:15 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
“If you want to become whole, let yourself be partial.” Tao 22

Mitchell, Stephen. Tao Te Ching: A New English Version (Perennial Classics) (p. 25). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.


This is very interesting.
This is what I arrived at in my study of the kabbalic sephira Hod. The process of creation from God to World must undergo at one point a splintering, so as for individual beings to be able to exist.

So, first we would have to immerse ourselves in acceptance of our limits, as splinters of God lacking the power to oversee the Whole of Being, and only then can we become whole as parts of being.


Is this the teaching you're referring to?

In sixteenth-century Safed, the Kabbalist Isaac Luria bound together the search for the true creation story with the search for life’s meaning. Luria asked this question: If before the beginning God was everywhere, then how could there have been room for the creation to expand? Rather than thinking of an initial expansion from a point, Luria turned the idea inside out and thought of God initially withdrawing from a point—going into “self-exile”—creating empty space for the universe, which would then be inside Himself.

And in this way Luria made a connection between an abstract process of creation and the meaning of his time in history. According to Luria, it is the absence of God from the space that makes evil possible within it. But God is not completely absent: as He withdrew, His divine light poured into the divine vessels that were the foundations of the world. The divine light was so powerful that the vessels shattered. Not even God’s own creation could withstand His light. And consequently this world God made is cracked and broken and in need of repair. But every shard of the vessels carries a spark of divine light, and these sparks lie scattered in unlikely places, often buried under suffering and injustice.

The purpose of life for the Kabbalistic community was to find the sparks and raise them up, and in this way to help God repair the world. Tzimtzum was the name for God’s act of withdrawing into self-exile. Shevirah was the shattering of the vessels into countless pieces, each with its spark of divine light. Tikkun was the cosmic purpose of repairing the world by finding and bringing together the divine sparks.

Primack, Joel R.. The View From the Center of the Universe: Discovering Our Extraordinary Place in the Cosmos (pp. 201-202). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.


The divine spark is, no doubt, an archetypal image. The Gnostics wrote of it. It is central to Quakerism as well.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:36 pm

Not quite, I am not a Lurianic kabbalist, I am a Merkabatic one, meaning experimental-empirical rather than theoretical; I am only studying on the inner planes, in meditations which last several hours each day of study. The results are very far from intellectual and it takes much time to formulate verbal thoughts about them.
Some conclusions do overlap with Luria. But what I mean with separation is not the same as what he means with Isolation.

He speaks of the ascent from the Earth up to God, I speak of Gods will descending down to become the material world. Separation is a painful necessity God has to face in the creation process.

Ive been undertaking a detailed lecture series of the Tree of Life since May 2017, last year I arrived at Hod and the question of Separation which includes the matter of the Devil, and a month or so back I completed the video about it.



The difference is, Merkabatics only take the Tree of Life as it is presented, as beginning in the Boundless Light and completing in the Kingdom - I do not postulate "the adept" (nor consider his ascent in the ontological terms of the tree) - even though I don't deny that I am one. I am not quite as interested in the role of the individual as in the methods of God.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:28 pm

Sorry for sounding terse, its always just the inherent stress of wanting to explain something which requires much more than just words to clarify.

Originally the Kabbalah is unwritten, passed on through parables and such "shadow-like" means from one student to the next. Luria changed much of this, conceptualizing a whole cosmos of human behaviours and world-layers and scales which are supposed to be objective, but this is not of the same kind of substance as walking the 22 paths of this thing, this glyph.

Identity-logic holds "A" = "A", this unfolding logic holds Image.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:45 pm

I'm interested in learning more about your experiential/empirical approach to the Kabbalah. My phenomenology aims at becoming conscious of and dialoguing with the imagery that populates my mind.

I related the saying "if you want to become whole, let yourself be partial", to the proposition that subpersonalities underlie the conscious ego. So, we are composed of subpersonalities, which all have their own desires, and their own viewpoint, and their own thoughts, and their own perceptions. They’re in a war with each other.

The goal of the Self is the conjunction of opposites--to integrate that plurality into a cohesive whole. Our interests are being manipulated behind the scenes, by unseen forces that are associated with our characterological development across time. These unconscious subpersonalities operate in the present by gripping our interest and directing it somewhere. That’s part of the instinct of individuation.

By allowing the sub-personalities to emerge as spontaneous images to consciousness one moves from ego centered consciousness to a center that mediates between the unconscious and consciousness. One becomes "partial" and the individuation process itself moves one toward the Whole. This has its parallel in what the Taoists call wu wei which has been translated as "non-action". It's the non-action of the ego which allows the action of Nature to take its course without obstruction.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:14 pm

"I'm interested in learning more about your experiential/empirical approach to the Kabbalah."

Check this one out. Here, I go into how Kabbalah goes from being theoretical to being empirical.



Ask me questions!



"I related the saying "if you want to become whole, let yourself be partial", to the proposition that subpersonalities underlie the conscious ego. So, we are composed of subpersonalities, which all have their own desires, and their own viewpoint, and their own thoughts, and their own perceptions. They’re in a war with each other. "

Thats an equally valid and useful interpretation Id say.
I was just working with that the other day, trying to allow all my separate trains of sentiment to exist for their own sake and keep my mind from judging one over the other.

If I were to study the language here Id offer "fragmented" rather than "partial" but nevertheless, your approach seems the more Jungian one -- Freudian too, ftm.
This being partial as I brought it up can be related more easily to Aleister Crowley, the most famous English kabbalist.

Im now reading a book which reveals that Freud, too, seems too have been a kabbalist, and even goes some way in showing that psychoanalysis is essentially kabbalistic; Sigmund Freud and the Jewish mystical tradition by one David Bakan.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:48 pm

Fixed Cross

Understanding tiphareth requires understanding netzach and understanding both require suffering.

This is not about theory.

Existence equals valuing.

You won’t understand the light by looking at the shadow.

Tiphareth is the place where masks have been taken off. Arriving there is a turbulent process.

Beauty is the structure that keeps things together. It is the center of all function.

The move from tiphareth to netzach is a move from universal to particular.

So my digestion of your video about the move from tiphareth to netzach includes a phenomenological description of what the images mean to me that is how they appear.

My interest was drawn toward the concrete...curiosity about your location in time and space... the urge to pin down your place as you traveled from Germany to Rome.

Even in my description in my previous post of what I'm doing in my phenomenology there are theoretical elements which you correctly identified as Jungian and Freudian.

The core of archetypal psychology is not about interpreting generalized symbols.

It is about experiencing the images.

The dominant culture directs us away from the images of our own soul.

With great difficulty will we recover/uncover them.

Pivotal to my transformation were the murderous images that came to me in moments of jealous rage.

Those images were more powerful than words --even the words of the internal critic which I understand from cognitive psychotherapy.

Those experiences involved great psychic suffering.

They also brought more abundant life.

My experiences suggest the hypothesis that imagery underlies all language. Wittgenstein said as much is the Tractatus, incidentally. Not a guy usually associated with Jung, Ha!

And, to revert to theory again, archetypes, the dynamic structures of the psyche, produce the images.

The archetypes are the gods and goddesses of world mythology.

They create the ego, not vice versa.

They aren’t projections. The ego is their projection.

Individuation (the realization of the soul in existence)=salvation.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:54 pm

"Those images were more powerful than words"

Yes. And they're harder to bring about.
Great passion is required to generate vivid imagery.

The most efficient rites of initiation are Astral -- meaning simply, of dream-substance, 'imaginary'.

Images do not point out things but are things. A word represents by being attributed to a thing, an image represents by being, i.e. having attributes.
An image can for example contain a word, and often does.

Magickal conjuring uses the immersion of all the senses in an imagination, and then, using attributes such as, veil, door, hole, tunnel, ladder, window, and most efficiently, mirror and seat, navigating that imagination into the depths of the cortex and really rewiring it through warping the paradigm by ones conscious presence as the imagination unfolds into encounters, with the archetypes of the self, gods, enemies, as well as the beings that are wholly particular to ones own life.

The process is physical, many muscles not normally used on their own terms will respond in the process of rewiring and the physiology rewrites itself on some station, in terms of some aspect of ones soul.
New shit has come to light.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:37 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:"Those images were more powerful than words"

Yes. And they're harder to bring about.
Great passion is required to generate vivid imagery.

The most efficient rites of initiation are Astral -- meaning simply, of dream-substance, 'imaginary'.

Images do not point out things but are things. A word represents by being attributed to a thing, an image represents by being, i.e. having attributes.
An image can for example contain a word, and often does.

Magickal conjuring uses the immersion of all the senses in an imagination, and then, using attributes such as, veil, door, hole, tunnel, ladder, window, and most efficiently, mirror and seat, navigating that imagination into the depths of the cortex and really rewiring it through warping the paradigm by ones conscious presence as the imagination unfolds into encounters, with the archetypes of the self, gods, enemies, as well as the beings that are wholly particular to ones own life.

The process is physical, many muscles not normally used on their own terms will respond in the process of rewiring and the physiology rewrites itself on some station, in terms of some aspect of ones soul.
New shit has come to light.


All of which I seem to understand. Spirit=Soul=Body from different perspectives.

So, the basic image of Kabbalah is the Tree of Life, right? It's the tree in the garden from which Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit. It's the tree they were excluded from by the two cherubim with flaming swords when they were thrown out of the garden. Now, to Christianity, the Tree of LIfe is Jesus as the Christ, the divine incarnate Logos, who says "I am the Life"..."Eternal Life".
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
Soren Kierkegaard– Journals, 432
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:37 pm

Yes indeed.

And, in western occultism which is all centred around the tree, Jesus Christ belongs to the centre Sephira, Tipharet.

The western occult schools, even as they worship all kinds of entities, never question the authority of Jesus the Christ.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:44 pm

Which reminds me of a book which Im at this point rather sure you'd enjoy the hell out of. Its called "Practical Guide to Qabalistic Symbolism" by Gareth Knight, who is heavily focused on the central role of the Lord Jesus (as opposed to Aleister Crowley who has grave respect for the man but is more concerned with other deities) -- the book just details the images and meanings of images which are connected to, attributed to, the tree on all the various levels.

Also, take a look at this site.

http://www.polarissite.net/tree--tol-index.html
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:57 am

felix dakat wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:"Those images were more powerful than words"

Yes. And they're harder to bring about.
Great passion is required to generate vivid imagery.

The most efficient rites of initiation are Astral -- meaning simply, of dream-substance, 'imaginary'.

Images do not point out things but are things. A word represents by being attributed to a thing, an image represents by being, i.e. having attributes.
An image can for example contain a word, and often does.

Magickal conjuring uses the immersion of all the senses in an imagination, and then, using attributes such as, veil, door, hole, tunnel, ladder, window, and most efficiently, mirror and seat, navigating that imagination into the depths of the cortex and really rewiring it through warping the paradigm by ones conscious presence as the imagination unfolds into encounters, with the archetypes of the self, gods, enemies, as well as the beings that are wholly particular to ones own life.

The process is physical, many muscles not normally used on their own terms will respond in the process of rewiring and the physiology rewrites itself on some station, in terms of some aspect of ones soul.
New shit has come to light.


All of which I seem to understand. Spirit=Soul=Body from different perspectives.

So, the basic image of Kabbalah is the Tree of Life, right? It's the tree in the garden from which Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit. It's the tree they were excluded from by the two cherubim with flaming swords when they were thrown out of the garden. Now, to Christianity, the Tree of LIfe is Jesus as the Christ, the divine incarnate Logos, who says "I am the Life"..."Eternal Life".

These are all images ; The Tree of Life, the forbidden one too, the serpent, the garden, the cherubim and flaming swords, the Christ, the Logos ; these are just images. What else can they be? These images work for many people. They make up mythologies in our psyche's imagination. Mythology is a powerful force. It can get us into heaven, or even hell -- themselves images, that have a driving determining force, affecting not just imagination but behavior too.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:53 pm

Id not say the Logos is an image. In fact I can tell you its not. Its just the way things are, or the reason for that, which is the same thing, and not an image. When you are hooked into it there are no images or sensory ideations at all, only an all-centering force. As for the rest, they are indeed images.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:03 pm

What does it mean to say they are "just images"? That they are meaningless? That they come from nowhere? That they should be dismissed or ignored or repressed?
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:07 am

Fixed Cross wrote:Id not say the Logos is an image. In fact I can tell you its not. Its just the way things are, or the reason for that, which is the same thing, and not an image. When you are hooked into it there are no images or sensory ideations at all, only an all-centering force. As for the rest, they are indeed images.

Hey Fixed Cross, thanks for responding.

So you must subscribe to Heraclitus' original meaning of the word Logos, when he coined it back around 500 BCE, that, it's the creative and sustaining force of the cosmos.

If that's the case, we're all hooked into it, as we can't get out of it. But due to Covid 19 the logos is not doing a lot of sustaining these days.

Be safe FC.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby felix dakat » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:22 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Id not say the Logos is an image. In fact I can tell you its not. Its just the way things are, or the reason for that, which is the same thing, and not an image. When you are hooked into it there are no images or sensory ideations at all, only an all-centering force. As for the rest, they are indeed images.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#Heraclitus

My hypothesis is that imagery underlies all language. So, we must have an image or images for logos.

If Yin is chaos, and Yang is order, than Logos=Yang. God said "Let there be light" His Word brought order out of chaos--light out of darkness--Yang out of Yin--consciousness out of unconsciousness.

The prologue to The Gospel of John explicates the theme:

"In the beginning was the Word [logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."


"The light of men" here is virtually synonymous with consciousness.

So we have images produced by the nervous system by means of processes that are unconscious to us. Some of these images are personal to us as individuals. Others are common to us as beings who have evolved for at least 3.5 billion years. These are the archetypes of the collective unconscious. The logos is one of them.
The purpose of my life would seem to be to express the truth as I discover it, but in such a manner that it is completely devoid of authority. By having no authority, by being seen by all as utterly unreliable, I express the truth and put everyone in a contradictory position where they can only save themselves by making the truth their own.
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Aware-ness » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:42 pm

felix dakat wrote:What does it mean to say they are "just images"? That they are meaningless? That they come from nowhere? That they should be dismissed or ignored or repressed?

In The Essential Jung on p124 Jung speaks of the Sovereign power of primordial images.

Here's a more recent example of the power of images : A guy buys a Playboy, takes it home and opens up the centerfold. There he finds a image of a beautiful young nude woman -- a primordial archetype if there ever was one. His body responds, his member swells, and soon the pages of the Playboy become sticky. He soiled that beautiful primordial archetype. Glad it was just a image ... unless the Playboy model "wants a pearl necklace."

That's an example of how images affect the body, the nervous system, and psyche ... and well, the Playboy pages.

Images have power. But they'er still just images. We endow them with power ... it's a symbiosis powered by us, by some kind of identity with the image.

To answer your question, images can be "dismissed or ignored or repressed," but only until they are triggered by goings-on usually in the unconsciousness of our psychic being.

An example image you may be familiar with : my avatar. What sovereign power does that provoke in your psyche?
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Re: Wholeness

Postby Fixed Cross » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:03 pm

Logos however is not words, but the primordial intelligence.
I see my own self-valuing logic (Id better call it simply, valuing-logic) as a representation of this Logos.

It is the love which creates.
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